From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
Message-ID: <199712061913.UAA21991@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Herngaard wrote:
>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights such as freedom of
>speech and association.  This is not true.  The German Basic Law
>provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech, religion and
>association.  However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National
>Socialism and incitement to racial, religious and national hatred.

I believe this is exactly what Mr. Frissell had in mind.

Incidentally, I heard that last year there were a series of raids on
bookstores for "hate" literature.  One of the books seized was Art
Spiegelman's "Maus".  The justification was that it glorified
violence.  (Feel free to correct me if this is baseless rumor. ;-)

>>Reply to Duncan Frissell:
>>If the German people desired to abolish the Radikalenerlass they
>>could do so simply by changing their goverment precisely as
>>U.S. citizens could abolish use of capital punishment against
>>minors.  Is there any difference?
>
>There is a difference, in that calling for the abolition of laws
>banning 'hate speech' can easily be labelled as 'hate speech' in
>themselves.
>
>I think it's true for banana republics.  However, as far I know
>itsn't illegal in Germany to call for the abolition of all hate laws.
>But calling for the abolition of human rights is certainly against
>the law.

!!! It sounds as if in Germany one may not discuss even the most basic
political philosophy without violating the law.

I'm not sure what is meant by "calling for the abolition of human
rights".  What would be some examples of things somebody could say and
what would be the penalties?  (Presuming you are allowed to give
examples, that is.)

>Yes. But if the majority of the voting population *really* wanted to
>install a hate speech censorship regime, they could elect a House
>and a Senate being able to change or amend the Bill of Rights.  It
>seems that criminalization of "flag desecration" to many is what hate
>speech is in Europe.

This is exactly correct.

>In addition, we do not prohibit pornography, and obscenity is a
>non-existent legal category.

Another good point.  Many in the U.S. have become so accustomed to
these speech restrictions that it seems normal.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

Subject: Re: Hate speech in Germany...
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
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