1995-01-06 - Re: Files and mail

Header Data

From: drechsau@winternet.com (Mike Horwath)
To: carolann@mm.com
Message Hash: f20eaaf2b246090cd7a949b28cbe958a40ba610c306cbadbfe08cbc7d1eaa308
Message ID: <m0rQMsX-000SwxC@icicle.winternet.com>
Reply To: <Pine.3.89.9501060725.A12518-0100000@downburst.mm.com>
UTC Datetime: 1995-01-06 22:12:55 UTC
Raw Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 14:12:55 PST

Raw message

From: drechsau@winternet.com (Mike Horwath)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 14:12:55 PST
To: carolann@mm.com
Subject: Re: Files and mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9501060725.A12518-0100000@downburst.mm.com>
Message-ID: <m0rQMsX-000SwxC@icicle.winternet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text

[This is hopefully going to be my only message on this matter, questions
or comments, just reply to me directly]

> A written reply will suffice.
> You have my permission to make all of my files world readable.
> You can put them in the ftp site.

Since you are posting this to so many people, they can all see my

And this is a written reply :)

> Upon receipt of notice, they will be removed within 24 hours,
> and you will recieve a signed PGP statement with the new key,
> stating that the files have been removed. Other Winternet users have
> already gone to my defense, and copied all of the world readable
> material anyway. And the whole account might as well be, too.

Fine, when I have things packed up, they will be moved and you will
be notified.

> Please do not forward any mail here. You will better serve yourself 
> bouncing the letter back to the sender and informing them of my new
> address. If I find forwarded mail in my mailbox, I will print hard
> copies and visit the Attorney General's Office and file a complaint
> under the Stalking laws of the State of Minnesota.

You can either take the alias in my alias database or have no forwarding
address left, that is your choice.  We are courteous enough to forward
for you, take it or leave it.

And stalking laws?  I don't think so.  There is a difference in
notification and stalking and my email to you is far from stalking.

> And please...deactivate my WWW pages. I was astounded to find out
> that during the suspension, they continued to remain active, as I
> learned in the office Wednesday. That was (and still is) stealing my 
> net.web.goodwill, and creating a falsehood amongst other users.

They were left there because they are of use to the 'net and until
I could hear from you what you wanted done with your files, there was
no need to remove the WWW pages or your account.

Now that we have your decision, everything will be removed.

And stealing?  You had them up for public consumption for many weeks.
Did everyone who touched your page steal then?

So, no, no advantage was taken by us via your WWW pages.

> I spent six full hours making a personal appearance, at great 
> personal expense, to the Winternet Office to resolve the situation.

Great personal expense?  This is going to be fun.

I don't think harassing Chad (my intern) or Doug (my roommate) for
6 full hours a very nice thing to do at all.  If you had wanted to 
meet me there, you could have had one of them call me, or if they
did not have the number for where I was at that day (which happened
to be my first complete day off in a few weeks), you could have
dropped me email stating you were at the office to discuss this.  I
was only 10 minutes away at a friends house to escape work.  I am
pretty sure they told you I was taking a day off after they found
out from me.  I was going to be in, I decided to rest instead.  So
sue me for it.

No Carol Anne, you did not have any 'great personal expense', what
you did do was impose yourself on two people for 6 hours.

You also then used our basic login on our console machines, which
is there for when people come to visit, to post messages to UseNet
and to send and receive email.  Not very nice now is it?  When service
was suspended, it meant all service, not just your account on the
main machines.

Talk about net.good.will...you stole service after it was suspended.

> My original reply still sits in suspended composition in my mailer. I 
> wasted not a nano-second in preparing my reply to the posting. In legal
> point of fact, the poster is violation of Minnesota State Law. He has
> no legal jurisdiction whatsoever.

What are you talking about now?

I hope you don't think I am taking legal action for something, because
that would be just funny to hear.  Your account was terminated for a
breach in our AUP, not because you caused me or Winternet harm.

> I did not take days to "investigate", nor cite that other things such as
> "my machines being hacked" and "I'll do it when I'm ready to do it,".

First day, monday, when I suspended your account, you did not even feel
it was resonable to call me when I had written a message to your screen
explaing that we needed to talk.

Tuesday, after being up for 20+ hours and getting a couple hours sleep,
you call and harass me at home even more about the status of your
account.  I told you I wanted to investigate these instances and that
I did not have the time because I was dealing with some hackers who
had tried to break in.  Again, sue me, this time for being tired.

Wednesday, I was going to be into work, which you assumed I would be, 
but did not bother to call to make sure I was around.  I decided I
was going to take that day off I had been trying to take and did
NOT find out you were in the office until late afternoon Wed.  I asked
Chad and Doug why you were there, and they said they did not know.  If
you had wanted to see me to talk about this, you should have spoken

The machine being down was not used as an excuse, but it is hard to
operate like we used to with only one user machine.  This is a piece
of stress on me, which was never taken out on you or on any other

> I was a simple complaint. It had no validity. Crossposting an article to
> .1% of the Usenet News Groups does not by the very statistic constitute 
> spam. (And I own two shares of Hormel Corp, so I do know what SPAM (tm) is.

What you consider spamming, and what others do, is two different things.
I explained my views, you have seen our AUP, and it was in my judgement,
and later, after talking with my peers, their judgement, that things
had gone too far.

Should I also bring to light your unsolicited mailings you did to users
on Winternet and others out to the 'net?  Remember those?  Something
about selling web pages from your account, which I had told you I would
rather you did not do, very politely I might add.  Or what about the
net cash mass mailing you did to people?

That is 2 counts in 2 days (notified on monday, early, of the spamming,
notified on wed of the mass unsolicited mailings).  Sorry, someone had
to put their foot down, and it happened to be us.

> The crossposting wasn't wasting resources.

It was innapropiate for the groups that you posted to.

> It is of no one's concern the actual groups posted. 

It is when others have to read it.

> They have the right and ability to respond.

And they did, both to you, you have stated, and to me, as the admin
of Winternet.

> I asked for no money. I did not stand to profit by the posting.

That doesn't matter, it was still innapropiate to post this message
to the groups you posted to.

> The person who started the whole thing was pretty heavily chastised,
> by the readers of his own news group.


> A fast "K" was all that any individual needed for this article.

Uhuh, we could have done that for C&S also, but it would not have

> No, Mr. Horwath, you are "way out-of-bounds" this time.
> And as the time cronology unveils itself, I am sure that 
> will be shown to be a very truthful, factual statement.

Sorry Carol Anne, but this is a system I administer and I use the AUP
to protect all of us accross the 'net.  This was not an attack against
you.  You were not judged unfairly.  What you did was break our agreement
and for this, you lost your service.

Also, you hadn't paid for your account for over 10 weeks, so why are you
bitching so much anyway?  We had talked about the winternet t-shirts
and how we would use the work you did and the monies you would receive
as payment.  Well, no t-shirts have gone out and at this time, I will
be cancelling all orders for them and will redesign them and have them
produced externally to what you have done.  This is what happens when
you hold something over someones head.

> Dangerous precedents were set here. I will not rest until the 
> whole of the Internet knows and is aware of the situation.

Then spam again, Carol Anne.

> Signed
> Carol Anne Braddock
> Friday January 6th, 1995 9:40 A.M.

> On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, Mike Horwath wrote:
> > You are welcome to your files and mail, I will pack everything up for
> > you as you left it, including your FTP area.
> > 
> > I expect you to try to reach me today in the afternoon at my office and
> > I will fully explain why your account was deleted, with full detail as
> > to why.
> > 
> > I do appreciate the work you did on the shirts for Winternet.  I don't
> > appreciate the harassment you have already tried to bring upon me.
> > 
> > When we talk, I think you might understand why this was done.  If you do
> > not, then I feel bad, as I must then not be making myself clear.  But
> > no matter what, this was policy that you chose to break even after I 
> > had talked to you about it.  More on this when we talk.
> > 
> > Good luck at your new provider, Larry Leone is an old user of mine and
> > seems to be a good guy, even if a little quiet on the newsgroups :)
> > 
> > A copy of this letter is also going to your new admin so that he knows
> > what is going on.
> > 
> > Larry, Carol Anne was using about 11.5MB of disk that will be moving
> > over from Winternet to MM.
> > 
> > Also, how have you been anyway?  Been awhile since I saw you.  Oh, and
> > could you install identd on your system?  Get back to me on anything,
> > or with questions.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Mike Horwath    IRC: Drechsau    LIFE: Lover     drechsau@winternet.com
> > Winternet:  info@winternet.com              root@jacobs.mn.org <- Linux!
> > Twin Cities area Internet Access:  612-941-9177 for more info
> > Founding member of Minnesota Coalition for Internet Accessibility

[all previously included messages left intact]

Mike Horwath    IRC: Drechsau    LIFE: Lover     drechsau@winternet.com
Winternet:  info@winternet.com              root@jacobs.mn.org <- Linux!
Twin Cities area Internet Access:  612-941-9177 for more info
Founding member of Minnesota Coalition for Internet Accessibility