1997-06-24 - Re: spam on this list (fwd)

Header Data

From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Message Hash: 391f7a571dd340b8c166ceabc1fdf84dfbafb89e44e7c89853dc4b5a87b76a9d
Message ID: <199706232357.SAA24059@einstein.ssz.com>
Reply To: N/A
UTC Datetime: 1997-06-24 00:25:40 UTC
Raw Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:25:40 +0800

Raw message

From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:25:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: spam on this list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706232357.SAA24059@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:25:51 -0400
> From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: spam on this list

> I support the constitution.  In the case of the first ammendment: The
> freedom it allows you, or whoever, to send spam and indulge in child
> pornography is the same freedom provided to those who say those ideas are
> wrong.  Got it?

But it isn't the same as you present it. I will explain below.

> How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
> allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
> material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

Let's look at this carefuly for a moment. Child pornography in and of itself
is irrelevant. The issue is sexual acts involving one or more children by
adults which are committed with (or without) the specific intent of creating
some physical record for personal use or to pass to others (with or without

Now let's contrast this with a simple pencil drawing of a child and an
adult having sex (eg. Greek pottery).

The question is are these two acts, one involving a real physical act
involving a minor, and the other as a physical expression of the artists
imagination equivalent?

Some would have you believe they are the same. Unfortunately, I have yet to
see a clear explanation of the view. Now the other side is that they are
different. This belief rests on at least two basic tenents. The first being
that it is the physical act that constitutes the crime and not simply
thinking about it. The second is that there is a fundamental difference of
quality between an item and its representation in some symbology. From this
it becomes clear that the issue is how do we reduce the initial sexual
contact. If THAT can be resolved the other problems resolve themselves. Now,
let's assume for a moment that we have in fact resolved this issue. Should
we then regulate representations of these acts by persons when it is assumed
no actual child was involved? The representation is nothing more than the
ramblings of an expressive mind. So are we not making certain thought
illegal? This certainly contrasts with the belief that a crime requires an
act. That doesn't sound very rational to me. And what about if I don't draw
it but rather write a story? Or perhaps use my image editor to take children
bathing suite adds and medical sources to fill it out, why should this be
any different than a written description? Or perhaps that image on the Greek
pot? No, these sort of line drawing was meant to be prohibited by the
Constitution. The founding fathers must have known the world was a gray sort
of place so they took special precautions (ie 10 Amendments) to make nice and
clear boundaries for the federal government (ie 1'st Amendment). It is clear
that they expressely did not want the government involved in human

> If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be fought. 

This is a straw man. There is no crypto involved in the physical act. Nice
strawman argument though, got almost the whole damn world swallowing at this

> A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
> free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Only if you are confused about exactly what the issue at hand is. We need
diagnostic proceedures usable by regular physicians and the issue really
needs to be handled as a medical and not a legal issue. Putting people in
jail won't effect this sort of human behaviour one damn bit. By the time the
guy gets to jail some poor kid has been really abused, is that how you want
your kid dealt with?

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