1997-12-23 - Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)

Header Data

From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Message Hash: 62ee02238ea7eeb9dce9a3cb882cbcade0c2fb4be4204ec5b475d48e02c49281
Message ID: <v03102800b0c596a2dae2@[]>
Reply To: <199712231551.JAA25031@einstein.ssz.com>
UTC Datetime: 1997-12-23 17:46:26 UTC
Raw Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:46:26 +0800

Raw message

From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:46:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199712231551.JAA25031@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0c596a2dae2@[]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700
>> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
>>  I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper
>> weapon.
>Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you...
>Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base
>pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308
>is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the
>91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit
>the H&K home page...

Not much point in arguing with Jim Choate on this one. The G3 is the
orginal name (Gewehr). The G3KA4 is one of the .308 models currentlt being

For the past couple of decades the naming system has also included "HK -9x"
names, with this breakdown by caliber:

HK-91, the .308 model, aka the G3-xx models. Also, the variants like the
SAR-9 from Springfield, the Argentine and Greek versions, etc.

HK-93, the .223 model, much less common than the HK-91.

HK-94, 9mm model (which becomes the MP-5 and all of its variants and the
SP-89 as changes are made to the barrel length, stock configuration, etc.

(I know these things quite well, having almost bought an HK-91 back before
they came under new restrictions, and then having bought an SP-89.)

But if Jim doesn't believe me, consider this quote from the rec.guns FAQ:

"The HK series of weapons commonly avaiable in the US consists of the HK-91
(7.62 Nato) HK-93 (5.56 Nato) and HK-94 (9mm Nato). All
these rifles share common features, namely, the locking system consists of
a roller locked inertial bolt, which operates as a delayed direct blow
back action."

>> For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
>Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay
>particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the
>break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup
>or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only
>thing these shows are good for.

Getting one's knowledge from, as you say, silly police shows, is not such a
good idea. For one thing, _entry teams_ are NOT snipers!

Go to some actual sniping sources. Or try some of the Web pages, such as
http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/ or http://sniper-store.com/ for
insights. Also, as I mentioned John Plaster's excellent 1993 book, "The
Ultimate Sniper." He discusses semiautomatics and their disadvantages in
price and simplicity compared to bolt-actions.

Again, entry team work is limited to close range. Sniping is quite
different, with ranges from a hundred yards on up to a thousand yards,
sometimes even more. The average police sniper takes his shot at a hundred
yards or less (less is always better). But he'll want the most accurate
piece, not a semi-auto.

Lon Horiuchi, the sniper at Ruby Ridge, used a bolt-action to take his shot.

>Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...

This'll be my last response to Jim on this issue. It appears he's talking
about a completely different thing than what I am calling, and what is
commonly called by others, sniping.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
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