From: ""L. Detweiler"" <ld231782@longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 10:41:07 PST
To: Phiber Optik <phiber@eff.org>
Subject: Re: Is this true???
In-Reply-To: <199301290818.AA18130@eff.org>
Message-ID: <9301291840.AA29938@longs.lance.colostate.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>That last message containing info on purported phone company monitoring
>activities was the biggest load of propagandist bullshit I think I've seen
>in a long time.
>I'm sure it generated the expected fear and paranoia amongst more ignorant
>people.

This is not a constructive comment. What is your evidence that it is
false?  We should dissect the claims.

|>Under an obscure
|>   pre-WWII ruling by the agency that is now the FCC... "No information may
|>   be encoded or transmitted over PUBLIC or PRIVATE forms of telephony or
|>   radio with the exception of those agencies involved in the National
|>   Security" a further designation goes on to say "with the exception of
|>   the MORSE system of 'transmittal', any communication that is not
|>   interpretable by the human ear is forbidden and unlawful."

This kind of stuff seems to happen whether there are laws sanctioning
it or not, but does anyone know what law is being referenced?

On a general note, what would tend to validate/rebut the claim?  First
of all, the simple feasibility of such an operation must be called into
question.  There is a tremendous amount of data going over modems on
public telephone lines.  What is the chance that even a small fraction
could be monitored? (And an even more infinitesmal fraction archived.) 
The claim has appeared here before that it is "trivial" for a
government agency to scan for interesting keywords and sort the data
based on that.  But I think that even that would lead to loads of
irrelevant crap and require an army of intelligence agents to sort. 
Where is this army?

Also, the claims in the letter are referring to public telephone
networks.  Would this include all the networks comprising the Internet?
 If so, this multiplies the data volume immensely.  How could anyone
find anything useful in these massive streams?  Granted, *very*
sensitive information is probably contained within it, but how the heck
could it be found efficiently?

|>   Your credit rating is also affected by your modem
|>   usage... if you ever get a copy of your credit history and find a
|>   listing that has HN06443 <--= this is a negative risk rating. or a code
|>   87AT4 <---= an even more negative risk rating.... these will usually
|>   have no description on them... and if you inquire about them they will
|>   tell you that it just comes from the system that way.

These claims that credit ratings are influenced by this secret
information are rather questionable.  What is the path from the
decision to mark a record with a black mark to the private companies
like TRW that record this?  Which clients or sources of TRW or whatever
are specifically those that monitor secret information?  What exactly
does he mean, "your credit rating is affected by your modem usage?"

If anyone could refute or demonstrate the actual meaning of HN06443 and
87AT4 codes on credit reports (I've never seen a report or these
codes), this would be a specific item to discredit, which would call
into question the whole of the claims.

|>   The information gathered goes to 3 seperate database facilities...1 is
|>   codenamed Diana and is located in Brussels, the 2nd is named Fredrick
|>   and is located somewhere in Malaysia, the 3rd is named Elizabeth and is
|>   located in Boulder, Colorado.  The information stored in these systems
|>   is accessable by the US Government, Interpol, Scotland Yard and various
|>   other such agencies.  

Regarding the claim that one major monitoring hub is code named
"elizabeth" in Boulder Colorado.  There is a government standards
agency there, if I am not mistaken, I forget if it is NIST (?).  Also,
the National Center for Oceanic Research, which has very tremendous
computing power (e.g. Cray YMP) is there also.  In their tours they
show massive archival storage areas, which they say record major
amounts of global atmospheric data (e.g. temperatures, wind currents
etc.) collected from satellites.  These could conceivably be in part
"covers" but the idea is also rather unimaginable.  Can anybody report
on agencies in the areas cited?  There is the very specific claim of a
carrier in Columbus Ohio.

I propose that cypherpunks list be a central reporting place for what
might be called "public counter spies" who report on the illicit
activities of our governments.  Its already largely in that area.  If
we get enough expertise, nonradicals, and infiltrators here we may be
able to get better ideas of what the heck NSA really is doing, what
kind of monitoring is really going on, what kind of cryptographic
techniques can really be broken, etc.