1993-03-02 - Re: Dining Crypto – An Introduction

Header Data

From: Tiia Roth-Biester <72147.3504@CompuServe.COM>
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Message Hash: b60c571f4a1eee5814fb1046f478849b5e02502a0e4db0acb09d8aef95e864eb
Message ID: <93030214245372147.3504_EHC51-1@CompuServe.COM>
Reply To: _N/A

UTC Datetime: 1993-03-02 14:33:38 UTC
Raw Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 06:33:38 PST

Raw message

From: Tiia Roth-Biester <72147.3504@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 06:33:38 PST
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dining Crypto -- An Introduction
Message-ID: <930302142453_72147.3504_EHC51-1@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

(Jim McCoy)

>There is no way you can get around taxation if you intend on using this
>system in real life.  Your system is much like that of a drug dealer, he
>gets all this money, but has no where to spend it until it has been

So in other words the earnings of the international banks located "offshore"
and lending $trillions in the "Eurodollar" (now world financial) markets
have been taxed for the last 30 years?  Their balance sheets don't reflect
these taxes.

The new technology will let everyone "expatriate" themselves either 
actually or virtually.  If, today, I am traveling in the South of France
and writing the Great American Novel, I have no French tax liability and
am not violating work permit laws even though I am working and may be
earning $millions.  (If I am or have been an American within the previous
10 years I would have US tax liability of course.)  On the nets I can do
a host of jobs while wandering around the world.  In most countries I would
have no income tax liability.  Taxing me (or net entities created by me)
would be even more difficult in a practical sense.

>They will get you at the banks or wherever you go to spend your
>money.  The "War on Drugs" has really caused this kind of banking service
>to dry up, 

Digital cash will be able to buy lots of goodies (entertainment, 
communication, non-physical services, and physical services once the VR 
interface improves sufficiently).  Dumped into an account that is 
otherwise unconnected to you it can be accessed via smart cards, debit 
cards, and ATMs from anywhere in the world.  It is still not that 
difficult to obtain a bank account somewhere in the world in a nome de 

>The appetite of the taxation-beast will not diminish, and everyone will 
>just end up having higher taxes on the physical elements of daily life 
>that can't be stuffed on the wire.  Sounds like this is going to be a 
>world of info-elite tax dodgers...the public will love you...

Actually the poor evade more taxes (as a portion of income) than the rich 
these days.  The appetite of the beast has not stopped the forex markets 
from tripling in size since 1986 (quite a bit untaxed).  Legally, services
sold "internationally" are not subject to tax and there is no entity
capable of levying such a tax.  The nets exist in an "international" realm.
As time goes on the percentage of gross world product that is non physical
is bound to grow (the non-physical bits have been growing steadily for
years).  Once future Madonnas determine that they can double their take 
home pay by renouncing their American citizenship (either actually or 
virtually) and selling their voices and images via the nets things will 
change.  If the coercive sector has to increase the taxes again and 
again on an ever smaller portion of gross world product, it will starve 
to death.

>The unbundling of the physical and non-physical aspects are nice, but how
>many non-physical aspects of a service are there? 

If your VR interface is good enough most services can be delivered non
physically.  Nonphysical services include:  writing (anything), 
entertainment, law, much of medicine, all of management, telecoms, 
advertising and marketing, all of financial services.  Once automation 
develops much of manufacturing will be non physical as you purchase 
"custom" goods made on the spot from downloaded patterns.

Authority can be a delicate thing.  On November 9th 1989 you would have 
been shot crossing the Berlin Wall without permission on November 11th 
1989 you could cross at will.  

Many of your supposed restraints only apply to US citizens in any case.  
British citizens living "overseas" have no UK tax liability and this is 
true of the citizens of most countries.  Everyone is "overseas" on the 
nets.  Even though US expatriates have continuing liabilities, 60% of 
them are tax nonfilers according to an IRS study of tax compliance.  
Shattering geographical bounds shatters legal ones as well even in this 
day and age.

Duncan  Frissell