From: Liam David Gray <lg2g+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 May 93 12:18:22 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP, and TANSTAAFL!
In-Reply-To: <9305041614.AA08798@hydra.unm.edu>
Message-ID: <wftg4j_00WBME6AGxv@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I already sent this to Stanton McCandlish in private e-mail, but I
thought it might be of interest to Cypherpunks in general.  In it I
correct some stupid statements I made in an earlier post.  -Liam]

------------- Begin forwarded message --------------
In <9305041614.AA08798@hydra.unm.edu>, you write:

> No, the "right" is in your right to actually leave work, and go get something
> to eat.  If you employer demanded a $15 dock in pay to take lunch, or refused
> to let you have your break (and in most states I believe there are labor laws
> that mandate that employees get a certain length-of-time break for every x
> amount of work) that would be a violation of your right to have lunch.

For the sake of argument <wink>, Stanton, I wouldn't say a "right to
lunch," even as posed this way, should stand.  If it's a statutory
right, then -- well, then it is just that.  But I regard this is
coincidence and would hesitate to call it a "natural right," since I
should be free to negotiate an employment contract which pays me less
("docks" me, if you wish) if I take time off for lunch, and more (a
"bonus?") if I stay on all day.  Note that at present I am _not_ free to
do so, so that right is being infringed upon, just as our privacy is
frequently infringed upon at present.

> Like-
> wise if someone put a gun to your head and said "thou shalt eat no lunch".

Right!  This seems to be the main parallel to privacy here.  I do agree
on that.

I accept your objection to my positioning of rights as commodities. 
Disregarding the fact that I still believe rights are fairly meaningless
(they only work if someone recognizes the same rights as you do, so
that's all subjective), I do realize what people mean when they talk
about rights, and that to talk of them as commodities therefore probably
_is_ confusing the issue.

What I meant to emphasize (and failed to mention) was that it is still
quite possible and natural to defend one's privacy, whether one believes
privacy is a "right" under the law or not.  Too often, I've seen people
use their violated rights as a justification for pointless, indignant
whining.  I want to advocate a more aggressive, guerrilla-style defense
of privacy; to me, it is enough that I _want_ privacy.  While rights are
inherent, and, agreed, are _not_ commodities, the preservation and
enforcement of all rights _costs_ something, and doesn't always involve
opponents who are willing to believe that what you are defending is a
right.

I think we're fundamentally in agreement.  I think I was right to have
second thoughts over whether my argument over rights was appropriate for
the list--probably it was not.  But nonetheless, I'm glad we're
discussing it.

Happy Cypherpunking!
Liam

PS:  I admired your courage in offering and advertising PGP on your BBS,
and thought you handled the threat from Jim Bidzos gracefully.  Let's
hope PGP can become legal soon.  Really, I'd like to see a PGP that is
legal for both personal _and commerical_ use, internationally, even if
it costs money--perhaps especially if it costs money.  The reason I
tried to establish rights as commodities, Stanton, is that I've read too
many Ayn Rand novels :) and believe that trading something in money is a
symbol of its value, and of the value of whoever created it, and should
be a big ego boost to creative people and to all involved.

I really don't like anything free, even something sold in a large
bundle.  Ever eat too much at an all-you-can-eat restaurant?  I think
that, in part, life is too much like an all-you-can-eat restaurant. 
Paying for something for its own merits causes us to get our priorities
straight.  I like to see people get filthy rich [why filthy?] _selling_
software; the feeling I get when I buy something is similar to the
feeling some people get when they give money to charities, I suppose. 
Everything worth doing is worth doing at a profit.  Ever get warm
fuzzies when you send something UPS instead of US Parcel Post? :-)  In
some cases, the profit may not be monetary.  But it's profit
nonetheless, and that can only be good.



---
Public key available by arrangement       -- The cat is out of the bag.
Too much of a dreamer not to be practical -- Go have your own "valiant defeat."
Liam David Gray <lg2g+@andrew.cmu.edu>    -- Quote me.