From: Jim McCoy <mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 19:25:35 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The death of the list as we know it (tm)
In-Reply-To: <9310080056.AA27566@dink.foretune.co.jp>
Message-ID: <199310080225.AA19451@minnie.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


trebor@foretune.co.jp (Robert J Woodhead) writes:
> I've only been monitoring the list for a couple of days, but already it
> is clear to me that the traffic is _way_ too high to manage as a mailing
> list.

It has been worse, it will get better.  This list goes through phases where
the discussion ranges from the good technical to the annoying op-ed that it
has been recently.  If it is way too high for you might I suggest you try
getting better software on your side to manage the traffic.

> A humble suggestion: someone undertake to create alt.cyperpunks and
> shadow the newsgroup and the mailing list (so that posts to one also go
> to the other). 

Has been proposed and shot down quite frequently.  The signal to noise
ratio of a newsgroup is much higher than a list.  A mailing list has a
self-regulating feature in that when the traffic becomes high and the
signal low everyone gets annoyed and _people learn to shut up!_  A
newsgroup does not have this feature and flamefests and other bullshit has
a tendency to feed upon itself until it drowns out everything else.

Just take a look at sci.crypt at the moment if you want a quick example.
There is a group dedicated to political crypto issues.  People still
insist on posting info to what should be a technical group even though
there is already a talk group for this stuff, and no amount of chastising or
reminders will dissuade them.

If someone were to do this to the cypherpunks group I would not be
surprised if someone just started a new mailing list and limited it to
invitation only for those who are interested in the real mission of this
group (cypherpunks write code, remember?  whining about bbs legal bullshit
and other topics just doesn't seem to fit the purpose.)

> In my case this would cut my reading time in half and increase my "harvest"
> by a factor of two.

You can set up an easy filter and gateway so that at your site the list
does go to a local newsgroup (some people already do this), but please do
not presume to make such a decision for the rest of us.  If you want to
make it easy for yourself please feel free to do so.  There is apparently a
lot of software out there for handling this kind of traffic volume that you
are just not aware of.

> The mailing list would still be available for those who
> cannot get the group.

Only the traffic would triple with even more bullshit as Sternlight and the
like takes notice of our little world.  More people would drop from the
list as you open the floodgates.

> Also, even an unmoderated alt group can be made moderated (and thus,
> filter out most of the forgery, etc) by appropriate use of technology
> described in this mailing list.

It takes someone about 5 seconds to figure out how to get around all of
that.  One advantage a mailing list gives us is the ability to maintain at
least on central point of administration so that if we did select a scheme
such as that on the extropians list we still have that option.  Once
something becomes a newsgroup we lose _all_ control we might have on the
list.  

Do not split the list, do not dip it in the mediocrity of the usenet, get
better software and let the system regulate itself; have some patience. 

jim