From: rarachel@photon.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 21:06:50 PST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clipper: Denning v Barlow Debate on AOL
Message-ID: <9403110507.AA08887@photon.poly.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


This is a captured chat from the Time Magazine, Time Odeon Online Forums.
On America Online, my handle is RayDude.

I unfortunately didn't get into the confrence in time to catch its
begining. However as there's a transcript of every such confrence,
I'll post that up as well.  As I just go this immediatly after the
confrence, there's no *OFFICAL* transcript posted online, however
when one becomes available, I will send it here...

(In the AOL "audience" you can only chat with those in your own
row.  All messages preceded by (6) are by those in my row.
This is kind of messy, but you can still follow all the simultaneous
discussions with a bit of effort.)

You can send me internet mail at rarachel@photon.poly.edu if you
wish, or RayDude@aol.com, however I prefer the photon machine.



Barlow1    : improved traffic analysis. Content is less important 
             than context, and most agents will
Barlow1    : support this.
Shuddup    : (6) I really don't accept the traffic analysis 
             argument. That's too much work!
COUNTMINDO : (6) i just don't like having a product forced on me, 
             we don't all have to buy FORD's if we want to
COUNTMINDO : (6) deal with the government
RPTime     : Another question from the audience.  JCMaille asks...
Barlow1    : By the way, I'm not seeing my responses. Am I still 
             online?
Question   : Does the government have a constitutional right of 
             access to my personal communications?
RPTime     : Yes, John you are!
RayDude    : (6) RE: Traffic analysis: bet on it.  It can be done 
             and very easily over the internet as is.
Kyrahn     : (6) or as if gun controll has taken semi automatic 
             guns and or automatics 
RayDude    : (6) It will be much easier when the cable companies 
             give you a net-feed.
RPTime     : Dr. Denning, why don't you go first?
Barlow1    : hello?
Shuddup    : (6) But why bother with TA? Cost high, payoff low. 
             Most of us are not evil!
MegSaint   : (6) Shuddup, since when has inefficency ever stopped 
             the governmnt from doing something?
Barlow1    : hello?
DDenning   : The Supreme Court ruled that wiretaps with a court 
             order are Constitutional.
Barlow1    : hello?
DDenning   : At one time, communications were not even protected 
             under the
RayDude    : (6) To cite an example, my girlfriend went on 
             vacation to HK. I'm not Chinese, but because I called 
             HK,
COUNTMINDO : (6) JPB is having troubles
DDenning   : 4th Amendment.  The government could wiretap without 
             a court order!
Shuddup    : (6) Right, but there;s almost always a reason - even 
             if it is just to prove that we can...
DDenning   : Now a court order is required.
RayDude    : (6) AT&T sent me an offer to call HK for much less. 
             This was half a year AFTER I called Hong Kong!!!
Kyrahn     : (6) crazy
RayDude    : (6) AT&T keeps track of EVERY call you make.  If 
             telephones have this much traffic analysis,
PhilipED   : To put the question another way, do citizens have a 
             right to use powerful encryption?
RayDude    : (6) so will the info highway!
Shuddup    : (6) Sure, but again - why?
DDenning   : Right now there are no laws preventing the use of any 
             encryption.
Shuddup    : (6) AT&T sells phone time. They have a reason.
DDenning   : Clipper is voluntary.  You can still use something 
             else.
RPTime     : We have to apologize.  John Barlow has temporaily 
             lost his connection...
MegSaint   : (6) I think we lost JPB! 
Shuddup    : (6) BIG BROTHER! PARANOIA!
RayDude    : (6) No, they are REQUIRED to keep records by the FCC, 
             another branch of the government. 
Kyrahn     : (6) I've lost my mind :>
Shuddup    : (6) :-)
PhilipED   : Dr. Denning, in your opinion...
COUNTMINDO : (6) they got him
RayDude    : (6) hehehe!
PhilipED   : would a law outlawing powerful encryption be 
             unconstiotutional?
Shuddup    : (6) >:-(
Kyrahn     : (6) it's not paranoia when they really plan to do it
Shuddup    : (6) The problem is to figure out why. Never ascribe 
             to malice what can be explained by stupidity!
MegSaint   : (6) Or beauracracy, which may be the same thing
DDenning   : I don't think so.  But that doesn't mean it will 
             happen.
Shuddup    : (6) Right..
COUNTMINDO : (6) they want to keep the status quo, but who's to 
             say that that is right?
PaulR42    : (6) Can Clipper break PGP2.3?
RayDude    : (6) Keep in mind that the NSA no longer have the 
             Russians to spy on.  So they need new targets. Us!
RPTime     : John Barlow is back with us.  Sorry for the 
             interruption!
MegSaint   : (6) Did she mean she doesn't think there will be a 
             law or she doesn't think it will be unconst.?
Shuddup    : (6) Yeah, but why? What do we got? 
RayDude    : (6) They need to be entertained, so they'll spy on 
             everyone they can citing all sorts of rants
PaulR42    : (6) Welcome back, John.
COUNTMINDO : (6) hooray back from the beyond
Shuddup    : (6) ;-)
PhilipED   : Barlow, Denning just said she didn't think a law 
             banning powerful encryption would be unconstitutional
RayDude    : (6) about "What if the drug dealers, terrorists, 
             child molesters, and pornographers" get strong 
             crypto?
PhilipED   : What do you say?
Barlow1    : Hi folks. Don't know what happened. Gald to be back
Kyrahn     : (6) kinda like algebra  let stupidity=Beauracracy
PhilipED   : Gald indeed!
MegSaint   : (6) Crooks already *have* strong crypto!
RayDude    : (6) Nope, as far as the cypherpunks can tell PGP is 
             still strong.  DES has been broken.
Kyrahn     : (6) multiply by x agencies
PaulR42    : (6) Use the RSA scheme?
Barlow1    : Actually, I believe that our current export embargoes 
             are a violation of the 1st Amendment
RayDude    : (6) That's the point.  Crooks already have strong 
             crypto, but the rest of us wont if UncleSam gets his 
             w
RayDude    : (6) way
Barlow1    : which specifically speech without regard to the 
             manner of speech. If we could restrict manner
COUNTMINDO : (6) and the crowd began chanting CANTWELL CANTWELL 
             CANTWELL
Kyrahn     : (6) I am Not a Crook
Barlow1    : of speech, it would be constitutional to require that 
             everyone speak English. Which of course it isn't
MegSaint   : (6) Cantwell? Explain please
PaulR42    : (6) BTW, PGP is classified as munitions.
RayDude    : (6) Neither am I.  But face it, the NSA doesn't want 
             anyone to have strong crypto except themselves.
PhilipED   : John, can you make the case why ordinary law-abiding 
             citizens need powerful encryption?
Kyrahn     : (6) so is any encryption program
COUNTMINDO : (6) CANTWELL is the rep. who is trying to pass a bill 
             to do away with the export law on encryption
RayDude    : (6) Yet, you can FTP PGP from Finland. You can import 
             IDEA from outside the country too. Munitions indee
COUNTMINDO : (6) classifying it as a munition
Kyrahn     : (6) importing is o.k.
Barlow1    : Because it is in the nature of digitally networked 
             communications to be quite visible. Everytime
MegSaint   : (6) Thanks, good informtation. Where have I been?
Kyrahn     : (6) just don't try to send it
Barlow1    : we make any sort of transaction in a digital 
             environment, we smear our fingerprints all over
Barlow1    : Cyberspace.
RayDude    : (6) If you guys want, you can subscribe to the 
             cypherpunks mailing list
Kyrahn     : (6) 'cause they can throw you in jail
COUNTMINDO : (6) no thanks
COUNTMINDO : (6) heavy traffic
RayDude    : (6) by sending a message to 
             cypherpunks-requests@toad.com with subscribe in the 
             subject and body.
PaulR42    : (6) What's the address?
Barlow1    : If we are to have any privacy in the future, we will 
             need virtual "walls" made of cryptography.
MegSaint   : (6) RayDude, what's the address?
RayDude    : (6) Beware, that you'll get over 70 messages a day!
Kyrahn     : (6) black "ice"
PaulR42    : (6) And the NSA on your tail.
RayDude    : (6) Do you guys know about "SecureDrive?"
COUNTMINDO : (6) holy gibson batman
Kyrahn     : (6) nope 
Kyrahn     : (6) flatman
RPTime     : Another audience question...
Question   : isn't like the gun argument? if guns are outlawed 
             only criminals will have guns, well if
Question   : clipper is standardized, won't criminals be the ones 
             NOT using it?
RayDude    : (6) SecureDrive is a DOS program that will give you 
             an encrypted hard drive using the IDEA cypher. Very
RayDude    : (6) secure.
RPTime     : Dr. Denning?
COUNTMINDO : (6) hey that's my question
Kyrahn     : (6) not grock dos 
MegSaint   : (6) Wow!
Kyrahn     : (6) am on mac
RayDude    : (6) I sent about 6 questions so far.. haven't seen 
             any yet.. must be slow..
Kyrahn     : (6) patience
DDenning   : If Clipper becomes the de facto standard, then it 
             will be the chief method
RayDude    : (6) Re: MAc Secure drive: no worries, I'm writing one 
             for the Mac. Send me a message in two monts.
MegSaint   : (6) There are over a hundred people here
Kyrahn     : (6) cool
RayDude    : (6) two months... sorry
PaulR42    : (6) Is it my imagination, but are the main 
             participants fading out....?
DDenning   : of encryption.  That would be what you'd get at Radio 
             Shack.  What criminals
RayDude    : (6) Cool, but very hard to write... Re: fading out, 
             no, were just talking too fast. :-)
DDenning   : use will depend on what is readily available and what 
             their cohorts are using.
MegSaint   : (6) Do we have better connections than the net 
             heavies?
COUNTMINDO : (6) such as PGP
Kyrahn     : (6) Raydude-> at AOL?
RayDude    : (6) As cypherpunks we are planning to give out free 
             disks with crypto at the next PC Expo in NYC. If
DDenning   : Both parties of a conversation have to use the same 
             thing.  Criminals also talk to
PaulR42    : (6) Cool, RayDude!
RayDude    : (6) any of you dudes are in NYC at the time, look us 
             up. :-)  (RayDude@aol, or rarachel@photon.poly.edu
DDenning   : a lot of people outside their immediate circle - 
             e.g., to buy goods and services. 
Kyrahn     : (6) cool
DDenning   : Also, they can be quite stupid at times.  But the 
             main thing is that criminals will
Kyrahn     : (6) you can reach me here on AOL
COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks mbone conference, watch for it soon
DDenning   : not be able to take advantage of the SKIPJACK 
             algorithm as a way of concealing
DDenning   : their  conversations.  This is the whole point.  It 
             is not to catch criminals.  It is
DDenning   : to allow people access to a really high quality 
             algorithm in a way that someone
COUNTMINDO : (6) what bullshit!
MegSaint   : (6) Countmindo, "cypherpunks *mbone* conference? I 
             don't get it.
DDenning   : cannot use it to conceal criminal activity.
Kyrahn     : (6) it gets deeper all the time
Barlow1    : The gun analogy is excellent up to a point. I can't 
             for the life of me imagine why we would think that
PaulR42    : (6) Where's the shovel?
COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks are putting together an mbone 
             conference, video and audio over the net
Barlow1    : even a stupid criminal would use Clipper if something 
             else were available. And when I talk
MegSaint   : (6) In other words, anyone not using Clipper will be, 
             de facto, a crook.
Barlow1    : to people in the administration their big hobgoblin 
             is the *nuclear-armed" terrorist. Any fanatic
Kyrahn     : (6) that's it 
RayDude    : (6) In other words, crypto except for clipper will be 
             illegal!
Barlow1    : smart enough to assemble and detonate a nuclear 
             device is going to be smart enough to download
COUNTMINDO : (6) yeah de-facto illegal
Barlow1    : PGP from a bulletin board somewhere.
RayDude    : (6) I wish I had a sparc station to join the mbone 
             conf.. hope one of you will have transcripts.
Kyrahn     : (6) red flags for anyone not using clipp you wings
PaulR42    : (6) Right on, John!
Barlow1    : Also, I'd like to point out that the gun analogy 
             doesn't go the whole distance. Crypto is by its
RayDude    : (6) Fuck clipper, we have to spread PGP far and wide 
             making it tough to outlaw it.
COUNTMINDO : (6) cool he kicks dennings ass off my question!!
Barlow1    : nature a purely *defensive* technology. You can't 
             shoot people with it.
RayDude    : (6) Yeah! Barlow!!! Go, Go, Go!!!!
PhilipED   : Speaking of PGP, Dr. Denning, is that encryption 
             system secure, in your opinion?
COUNTMINDO : (6) ooo good one.
PaulR42    : (6) Here it is...
RayDude    : (6) hahahah!
RayDude    : (6) Lets see if the NSA cracked PGP yet!!
PaulR42    : (6) she'll sidestep it.
COUNTMINDO : (6) that gets my bet
DDenning   : I don't know of anyone who's been able to break the 
             IDEA algorithm that it uses.
RayDude    : (6) Time to pull a Ronnie Reagan, for Denning...
Kyrahn     : (6) they are working on it 
COUNTMINDO : (6) oh she said it!!!
RayDude    : (6) Bullshit! PGP uses RSA and IDEA!
RPTime     : Back to the audience for a question from Steve HW..
COUNTMINDO : (6) wake up the neighbors
MegSaint   : (6) Wait, I thought PGP was RSA
PaulR42    : (6) What's the diff?
Question   : This is for Dr. Denning.  What is the evidence of 
             harm if the Clipper proposal is not
Question   : adopted?
RayDude    : (6) RSA uses public/private keys meaning you can 
             publish your key and anyone can send you a 100%
RayDude    : (6) private message
Kyrahn     : (6) the trick is to have something that mutates when 
             someone attemps to "illegally" break it
PaulR42    : (6) And IDEA? 
DDenning   : The harm would be to the government.  They would not 
             be able to use it and would
RayDude    : (6) With idea, you can't spread your key. It's the 
             only thing that protects your code.
Kyrahn     : (6) call it BackFire
DDenning   : have to resort to something less secure.  Also, 
             Clipper is part of a larger
COUNTMINDO : (6) awwww poor government
RayDude    : (6) IDEA uses only one password.  PGP gives you a 
             public & private.  Your can only read your mail
DDenning   : project to make hardware available for encryption and 
             digital signatures.  This
RayDude    : (6) if you decrypt it with your private key when 
             someone scrambles it with your public key.
MegSaint   : (6) So what was Denning talking about then?
RayDude    : (6) Hence anyone can send you 100% private mail 
             without knowing your secret keyword.
Kyrahn     : (6) RipemMac use dual components
DDenning   : will be used, for example, in the Defense Message 
             System.  The goverment
DDenning   : needs a new standard.
PaulR42    : (6) OK, I get it now.
Kyrahn     : (6) but is still under developement :<
RayDude    : (6) A bit of trivia, did you guys know that our 
             contries founding fathers were crooks?
COUNTMINDO : (6) then let the government use what they want and 
             let us use what we want
Kyrahn     : (6) of course! 
DDenning   : I personally believe that making really powerful 
             encryption like SKIPJACK available
RayDude    : (6) Thats right, they were sumglers, trying to evade 
             Englands taxes. Hence for the constitution
COUNTMINDO : (6) god bless 'em ;)
PaulR42    : (6) Explain, RayDude, that can't possibly be true.
RayDude    : (6) having lots of protections against abuse!
DDenning   : without key escrow could be harmful to society.  
             Wiretaps have been essential
Kyrahn     : (6) same thing with most "city" Fathers
RayDude    : (6) Too bad they didn't put in privacy protection 
             too. :-I
Shuddup    : (6) Right. Cops got search warrants, I got a door 
             lock; cops make mistakes, but I'm worried about 
             crooks
PaulR42    : (6) So even Geo. Washington said "I am not a crook?"
RayDude    : (6) Their idea was to have a tiny government, only to 
             serve, not to rule.
Shuddup    : (6) I just want to pick my own size and cost of 
             doorlock!
DDenning   : for preventing and solving many serious crimes and 
             terrorist activities.
Barlow1    : Why on earth would the government have to use 
             something else if they failed to get the rest of
Kyrahn     : (6) I am Not A Crook!!
RayDude    : (6) It's a matter of view point. To the Brits he was 
             a crook & traitor.  To us a hero. But the
Barlow1    : rest of us to buy into this folly?
COUNTMINDO : (6) but she said it wasn't to stop criminals
RayDude    : (6) smuggling was not a publicised thing.
PaulR42    : (6) One man's revolutionary is another man's freedom 
             fighter.
Barlow1    : Hey, they are already using SKIPJACK. It's a 
             government algorithm and has been in use for a 
Kyrahn     : (6) besides the rest of the world will not use 
             clipper
Shuddup    : (6) I think she DID say that clipper was to stop 
             illegal wiretaps, or at least that it could.
DDenning   : CPSR and others are asking the government to drop 
             Clipper.
Barlow1    : long time. There are plenty other algorithms which we 
             can use which are truly protected... unless of 
PaulR42    : (6) And it's a good thing too, Dorothy!
Kyrahn     : (6) so it stands to reason that the crooks you worry 
             about will use some exotic
Shuddup    : (6) Right!
RayDude    : (6) BTW: Over the internet we have an 80% petition 
             rate!!! 80% of the internet opposes clipper!
Barlow1    : course, this is only the first step in a process 
             which will outlaw other forms of crypto. And I
Kyrahn     : (6) and over 100 major companies
COUNTMINDO : (6) i signed my electro petition
Barlow1    : believe that it must be. Makes absolutely no sense 
             otherwise. 
MegSaint   : (6) I'll be sending in my petition soon. Just got the 
             latest CPSR Alert with the address.
RayDude    : (6) I put my name on Satan's list, yeah baby I did.. 
             :-)
Barlow1    : EFF is not asking the Government to drop Clipper, 
             though we would vastly prefer they did. We're
PaulR42    : (6) But most Americans have no idea what the NSA is 
             trying to do with Clipper. And is has such a nice na
PaulR42    : (6) me
Barlow1    : merely asking that no steps be taken to require it 
             either by law or practice...as, for example, would
RayDude    : (6) That's why I'm going to give out free disks at 
             PCExpo... If we can raise some
Barlow1    : be the case if you had to use a Clipper chip to file 
             your tax return.
RayDude    : (6) eyebrows from big businesses, we can raise 
             everyone's eyebrows eventially
PhilipED   : Dr. Denning, do you think this is the "first step in 
             a process to outlaw crypto"?
RayDude    : (6) eventually. (sorry)
COUNTMINDO : (6) no, no way, yeah that's the ticket...
DDenning   : No I do not.  The government has not been using 
             SKIPJACK to my knowledge.
Kyrahn     : (6) well I got to go/ But keep in touch!
DDenning   : The Clipper initiative represents the first time that 
             the government has put
PaulR42    : (6) Can a MacPGP encrypted message be decyphered by a 
             PC user, and vice versa? Is there PGP for PCs?
Kyrahn     : (6) :-> 
MegSaint   : (6) Bye Kyrahn
Shuddup    : (6) bye
COUNTMINDO : (6) bye
PaulR42    : (6) See ya!
RayDude    : (6) Oh, DDenning has knowledge about what the gov has 
             been using????
RayDude    : (6) Bye K.
DDenning   : one of their really good algorithms out there in the 
             unclassified arena.  They
COUNTMINDO : (6) bet your ass she does
RayDude    : (6) BTW: Which of you wanted the Mac or PC Secure 
             drive? I can send'em to you?
HotRodKart : (6) Being that this my first rodeo on the E/F I 
             wonder if this damn thing really works?
MegSaint   : (6) Paul, I believe the answer to bothe or your 
             questions is "Yes"
DDenning   : are trying to do this in a way that won't backfire 
             against the public.  Other
PaulR42    : (6) Thanks, Meg
MegSaint   : (6) Ray, I would be interested in the Mac Secure 
             Drive
DDenning   : NSA developed algorithms are not available for 
             purchase by the public.
Barlow1    : I appreciate their willingness to make some of that
COUNTMINDO : (6) more audience questions, c'mon!
Barlow1    : crypto research available to a public which has paid 
             so much for it, but I'm afraid that I would
RayDude    : (6) I'm here on AOL.. Just send mail to RayDude. :-) 
MegSaint   : (6) Heck, the government developed these algorithims 
             with OUR money! Yes John!
RayDude    : (6) Or if you have internet access, it'll be faster 
             to send me mail to rarachel@photon.poly.edu
Barlow1    : never trust an algorithm which was given to me by any 
             government. And I certainly don't trust
PaulR42    : (6) Is Barlow1 JPB's aol address?
MegSaint   : (6) Will do, RayDude.
Barlow1    : a classified algorithm like Skipjack, even without
PaulR42    : (6) Right on John!!!!
Barlow1    : a back door which everyone can see. I think I'll 
             stick to systems which have been properly vetted
MegSaint   : (6) Barlow1 may be a temporary address.
Barlow1    : to be clear of such compromises, like RSA. I hope 
             others will do likewise and that RSA will become
PaulR42    : (6) uh huh
Barlow1    : the standard which Clipper shouldn't be.
MegSaint   : (6) I find it hard to believe that Denning hangs out 
             on AOL
RPTime     : Time for one more question from our audience...
Question   : To John Barlow.  Isn't society becoming increasingly 
             vulnerable to concerted
Question   : criminal/terrorist disruption, requiring *stronger* 
             law enforcement tools?
RayDude    : (6) Meg, gotcha in my address book... will send a 
             copy when it's done.  Want a beta, or want to wait?
COUNTMINDO : (6) holy right winger, batman 
PaulR42    : (6) I wonder if Denning listens to the Dead?
PaulR42    : (6) Dumb question, sorry
COUNTMINDO : (6) naw, funny one
MegSaint   : (6) I'll take beta. What's life with out a little 
             risk?
Barlow1    : Gee. I don't know. It's a scary world. However, I'm 
             willing to take my chances with the few terrorists
COUNTMINDO : (6) life without risk = disneyland
RayDude    : (6) booooo.... stupid question! I've sent so many 
             good ones, why take that one?
MegSaint   : (6) Some might consider Barlow a terrorist
Barlow1    : and drug lords there are out there rather than 
             trusting government with the kind of almost unlimited
PaulR42    : (6) I'll bet she hasn't eaten as many shrooms at Dead 
             concerts as JPB <g> 
RayDude    : (6) disneyland=lawyers, lawsuits, cops, 
             big-mickey-brother, etc... bad, bad bad!
Barlow1    : surveillance power which Clipper and Digital 
             Telephony would give them. It's a touch choice. But
MegSaint   : (6) So why did you send the stupid one, RayDude :)
Barlow1    : when you look at the evil perpetrated by government 
             over this century in the name of stopping crime,
RayDude    : (6) That wasn't mine Meg..  But I should have sent a 
             stupid one.. them's the only ones accepted...
RayDude    : (6) it seems...
Barlow1    : it far exceeds that done by other organized 
             criminals.
COUNTMINDO : (6) hey mine was accepted  :(
PhilipED   : Dr. Denning, hasn't remote listening technology 
             enhanced police abilities to eavesdrop to the 
             point...
RayDude    : (6) Sorry :-)
MegSaint   : (6) Oops, misunderstood your comment. <just kidding, 
             anyway>
PhilipED   : where the loss of a few wire taps won;t mean much?
PaulR42    : (6) Hasn't Time Mag cooperated with the CIA and 
             helped them obtain info in the sixties?
Shuddup    : (6) It wouldbe interesting to know how many questions 
             where sent up!
RayDude    : (6) Sorry Count... didn't mean it like that...
DDenning   : No.  They need to get the cooperation of the service 
             providers to implement
MegSaint   : (6) Do they *have* to or are they just supposed to ?
COUNTMINDO : (6) is this thing over at 10?
HotRodKart : (6) TIME = LEFT
RayDude    : (6) More like cooperation of the service providers or 
             the service providers will be fined $10K a day!!!
DDenning   : a wiretap.  The loss of some wiretaps could be costly 
             indeed.  As an example,
RayDude    : (6) The FBI digital telephony bill requires that all 
             networks have a spy line or they pay $10K a day!
RayDude    : (6) if the damn thing passes!
DDenning   : wiretaps were used to help solve a case that involved 
             plans by a Chicago
DDenning   : gang from shooting down a commercial airliner.  There 
             have been 2 cases where
COUNTMINDO : (6) Cub, White Sock, Bull?
DDenning   : they helped save the lives of kids who were going to 
             be kidnaped for the making
DDenning   : of a snuff murder film.  They helped solve a case 
             where a man's house was going
COUNTMINDO : (6) c'mon boss, who's going to use voice encryption 
             anyways?
RayDude    : (6) Oh yeah, right, surrrre... good ones...
PaulR42    : (6) Gag me, Dorothy.
DDenning   : to be bombed.  I could go on.  If we take John's 
             arguments about law enforcement
DDenning   : to their logical conclusion, we'd just get rid of law 
             enforcement.  I think it's better
RayDude    : (6) Why should we as tax payers pay $10Billion a year 
             for Clipper when only 10-15 wiretap warrants are
DDenning   : to have it.  The people in law enforcement hate it as 
             much as the rest of us when
RayDude    : (6) actually given out to law enforcement agents per 
             year? 
RayDude    : (6) Is $10Billion the cost of 10 or so wire taps a 
             year????  I think not!
DDenning   : some member of the community does something wrong.  
             And they correct it,
RayDude    : (6) It's only for spying on us!
DDenning   : design new procedures and laws where necessary, and 
             go on.
Barlow1    : Oh, please. I'm not proposing eliminating police. I'm 
             opposing giving them unlimited powers. 
COUNTMINDO : (6) foreign countries will laugh at this
Barlow1    : Also,these are the same cases cited over and over by 
             everyone from you to Judge Freeh.Surely, we 
RayDude    : (6) BTW: They plan on exporting clipper.  What 
             country would be stupid enough to use a chip that 
             will le
RayDude    : (6) the USA spy on their private stuff?
Barlow1    : aren't going to fundamentally change the balance of
Barlow1    : power in this country because of these two 
             (undocumented, to my knowledge) stories.
RayDude    : (6) BTW: there's talk that the recent espionage case 
             is simply media fodder incited by the NSA so that
COUNTMINDO : (6) guess it doesn't end at 10...
RayDude    : (6) they can say "Look, with encryption we wouldn't 
             have been able to catch'em!"
DDenning   : Clipper is not going to change the balance of power. 
              It does not give
RayDude    : (6) "So we need clipper and we need to ban all other 
             encryption"
RayDude    : (6) Ohhh, yeah, clipper isn't going to change the 
             balance... pure raw, grade A-bull$#it!
DDenning   : law enforcement any additional authority to do 
             wiretaps.  
Barlow1    : Well, this is where we basically disagree, Dorothy. 
             If we could continue the same level of LE capacity
PaulR42    : (6) But it gives them the capability to do so.
MegSaint   : (6) Does Denning think we're all stupid?
Barlow1    : we presently have, I'd have no objection. But I 
             believe, for reasons I'm not sure we have the
RayDude    : (6) yes
HotRodKart : (6) I cant believe she said that HELLOOOOOO any gray 
             matter
Barlow1    : bandwidth to discuss here, that we are talking about
RayDude    : (6) She thinks that since she has a degree in crypto 
             that everyone else is stupid and shouldn't
MegSaint   : (6) I'm feeling very patronized.
RayDude    : (6) be allowed to think about crypto
Barlow1    : dramatically enhancing their abilities. For one 
             thing, we would greatly reduce the bureaucratic
MegSaint   : (6) I came with something of an open mind. She isn't 
             helping her cause any. not with me, anyway.
Barlow1    : overhead involved in wiretap, which is what keeps it 
             under 900 cases nationwide at the present.
RayDude    : (6) She's good with crypto, but a real idiot when it 
             comes to anything about the gov't.
RayDude    : (6) Or maybe they just pay her well...
RPTime     : And that will have to be the last word on the matter 
             for tonight...
DDenning   : The overhead of a wiretap is more likely to increase, 
             not decrease.
RayDude    : (6) booo!
COUNTMINDO : (6) oh c'mon
COUNTMINDO : (6) just getting fun
PhilipED   : Not quite!
RPTime     : Maybe not!  ;-)
RPTime     : THAT will be the final word!
RayDude    : (6) Why didn't they throw my questions in!!! :-(  I 
             had some real Denny-friers in there...
COUNTMINDO : (6) thpppppt!
Barlow1    : Well, let's get together and talk, Dorothy. 
RayDude    : (6) ;-) 
RPTime     : TIME thanks Dr. Dorothy Denning and John Perry Barlow 
             for being with us tonight...
RayDude    : (6) Oooh, he's asking her out!!!  Maybe he'll ditch 
             her at the curb..
MegSaint   : (6) Myabe they decided to shut her up before she did 
             more damange to the adminstraion position
RPTime     : along with Philip Elmer-DeWitt.  Thank you all, and 
             goodnight!
RayDude    : (6) heheh
PhilipED   : Thank you both. This was very interesting. 
RayDude    : (6) Oh quit thanking 
DDenning   : Thank you for the opportunity to be here!
COUNTMINDO : (6) butt kisser
PaulR42    : (6) Well, it's been nice, bye all! And write your 
             congressperson about Clipper!
RayDude    : (6) each other and give some real issues a thought!
MegSaint   : (6) Good Night, all. It was fun sitting with you.
PaulR42    : (6) Bye JPB, say hi to Jerry for me!
RayDude    : (6) Well folks, see you whenever... it was fun. :-)
RayDude    : (6) Hope some of you will join the cypherpunks if you 
             can stand to read that much email a day...
COUNTMINDO : (6) futureculture is enough for me thanks
MegSaint   : (6) Already on a list that nets me 60 letters a day. 
             Don't know if I can afford the airtime
DDenning   : spelling errors?
MegSaint   : (6) What?
RayDude    : (6) Well at least do me a favor and give out PGP to 
             all the folks you know who have PC's or Macs..
COUNTMINDO : (6) huh? 
RayDude    : (6) huh???
RayDude    : (6) looks like Denny slipped...
MegSaint   : (6) Will spread the gospel, at least as far as Kyrahn
HotRodKart : (6) PGP?
RayDude    : (6) Pretty Good Privacy. Excellent crypto program...
RayDude    : (6) Let me know if you want a copy... Mac or PC...
HotRodKart : (6) Thank you 
HotRodKart : (6) where do you get it?
COUNTMINDO : (6) guess this is really over, i was hoping JPB would 
             keep going
RayDude    : (6) I get off the internet... but... I guess AOL 
             doesn't give access to that... I can mail it to you
HotRodKart : (6) PC
RayDude    : (6) Actually Barlow hit Denning before on the 
             internet.. that's how this got started...
Barlow1    : it be too long?
RayDude    : (6) Hot: where do you live?  If you're in NYC, I can 
             just give you a disk...
MegSaint   : (6) Well, I really should go this time...(What do you 
             suppose they're doing, still in there?
HotRodKart : (6) San Diego
COUNTMINDO : (6) it be too long    hehehehe that's what she said
RayDude    : (6) Oh well. :-)  Want me to mail you a disk or 
             upload it?  (It'd be way too long an upload..)
HotRodKart : (6) Mail wood b ok
RayDude    : (6) okay, send me your address in email...
HotRodKart : (6) To RayDude?
RayDude    : (6) Yep... to RayDude...
HotRodKart : (6) I think I know how to use it I'll give it my best 
             shot
RayDude    : (6) Just go up to the Mail menu and hit Compose Mail, 
             then type in RayDude in the "To:" field.
COUNTMINDO : (6) well, gone, seeya, nice talking...
HotRodKart : (6) got it thanks
RayDude    : (6) Welp, I guess, that's it for tonight.. :-)  
             Goodnight folks. 
RayDude    : (6) Last words: "Die Clipper, Die, Die Die!! Die 
             Digital Telephony Act, Die, Die, Die!!!"