From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@access.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 20:58:32 PDT
To: nelson@crynwr.com (Russell Nelson)
Subject: Re: spooks on cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <m0pwh1T-000IDpC@crynwr>
Message-ID: <199404290358.AA11637@access3.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
>    Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>    Reply-To: perry@imsi.com
>    X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission
>    Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 13:32:10 -0400
>    From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@snark.imsi.com>
> 
>    Russell Nelson says:
>    > Sorry, but this is no help.  It's impossible to distinguish Agents
>    > Provocateur from merely incompetent people.  You need to deal with the
>    > latter, and so the former fall out in the wash.
>    > 
>    > If the cypherpunk movement is to be an effective non-violent force, it
>    > must realize that secrecy is no help.  The best designed action will
>    > work even if your enemy helps you plan it and carry it out.  Karn's CJR
>    > is an example of this.
> 
>    Frankly, I agree.
> 
> <gasp!>  That's a [my] change from a few years ago, eh?
> 
>    The NSA will either adapt or die -- it seems to be trying to die right
>    now rather than adapt, but thats not our problem.
> 
> Cautionary note here, Perry.  People who feel that have no choices
> often don't care if the only choice they see is a bad one.  Hitler
> [yeah, yeah, I know] convinced the German people that all their
> choices were bad, but his was best.  They killed a few people -- it
> was in all the papers at the time.

Concur.


Confront them with annihilation,
and they will then survive;
plunge them into a deadly situation,
and they will then live.

When people fall into danger,
they are then able to strive for victory.

		-Sun Tzu

> 
> What can crypto do to counteract fascism?  Especially given that
> crypto will be used as an excuse for said fascism.  You could argue
> that it is already, but if you'll notice, the public reasoning for
> Clipper never includes "Clipper exists to displace ubiquitious public
> key crypto".


Crypto defies fascism when it is widespread and solid in the citizenry.
If enslavement is the ability to stifle speech, crypto is the liberator.


> -russ <nelson@crynwr.com>      ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav
> Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
> 11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)    | Quakers do it in the light
> Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.
> 

I think the dismissal of the NSA is premature.
I think the rumors of the NSA's death are greatly exaggerated.
I think the focus on the NSA in this group over looks more dangerous threats.

Crypto helps, but it's not the end all.
Why ask for trouble on the assumption that the intelligence agencies are 
fighting a losing battle?  Especially when the assumption is dubious.  
Digitel and Clipper could turn the tide very quickly.

Perhaps a more public NSA and FBI could be more dangerous to liberty than 
hidden ones?  It's certainly much easier to apply influence in public 
than in secret and behind the scenes.

I'm not sure how much the NSA needs to adapt here.  I'm not sure those 
who would resist centralism and regulation WANT the NSA to adapt.  
Considering the way in which AT&T fell into line I wonder how poorly the 
NSA, and the administration, are doing.

If anyone doubts that the administration and more importantly, the 
Congress, still finds use for intelligence agencies try to get a copy of 
today's M&L news hour.  (4/28/94)



Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits,
cannot be had by analogy,
cannot be found out by calculation.

It must be obtained from people,
people who know the conditions of the enemy.

		- Sun Tzu