From: plaz@netcom.com (Plaz)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 14:00:01 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: This List--Public, Private, or Other? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199404062100.OAA10111@mail.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        I found Tim's post the other day on why he quit the extropians list
a tad offensive. In a forum where no one is interested in the particulars,
he brought up the old "Extropian Dogma" argument.

        It would be unreasonable of me to argue the point, as it would be
far off topic in this forum to refute him.

        I would like to state, however, that I dislike the his stating
his ignorance and then pronouncing his opinion as fact. (Or more
annoyingly, in the reverse order.)

        Tim, you are well aware that I read the cypherpunks list, and that I
would interpret the jibe 'certain folks were treating the "Extropian
Principles 2.0" as a kind of catechism to be quoted to doubters' as aimed
at myself, since you levelled that charge at me at the time. Is this a
deliberate attempt to insult me? In a forum that would be difficult to
reasonably defend myself? A tactic hardly worthy of you.

Difficult to swallow portions of the message:
>The Extropians are a fine bunch, and I enjoyed my 18 months on the
>list. Ultimately, it was taking too much of my time for too little new
>information in return, certain folks were treating the "Extropian
>Principles 2.0" as a kind of catechism to be quoted to doubters, and
>the personal invective was intensifying. I chose to leave and to use
>the saved time to learn to play the electric guitar....seriously.
[...]
>It is true that Max More, the Extropian Maximalus, and I did exchange
>some harsh words, mostly over Max's dislike of my pointing out some
>disturbing parallels between Extropianism and certain religions. I
>don't believe Max is a huckster, a la L. Ron Hubbard and
>Dianetics/Scientology, but it is also the case that I found nothing
>personally very interesting or satisfying in centering arguments
>around ideas like "Dynamic Optimism" and "Unbounded Rationality" (I
>never did learn the exact wording of the Five Principles, so bear with
>me).
>
>I remain on good terms with the many Extropian folks who I see at Bay
>Area events and parties, and I even talked to Max at a party several
>weeks ago. I wish them well, as our interests often coincide (and many
>are on the Cypherpunks list), but I have some doubts that membership
>will grow significantly--the type of bright, independent,
>anarcho-capitalist folks drawn to discussions of the sort Extropians
>like to engage in are seldom interested in dogma, even if the dogma is
>Rational and Dynamically Optimistic.

In spite of the fact that I would like to "set the record straight" on some
of your assertions, I refuse to debate this terribly one sided
representation of these events. Events that entailed some of the worst
behavior I've ever seen from all parties, particularily from you, Mr. May.

IMO, levelling these assertions up out of nowhere, for no reason, is not a
way to stay on good terms.

- A somewhat pissed plaz, who still maintains he is not, nor has ever been,
dogmatic about the damned Extropian Principles.

_______________________________________________________________________
Geoff Dale         -- Cypherpunk/Extropian --         Plastic Beethoven
AnarchyPPL - Anarch (Adjudicator)      ExI-Freegate Virtual Branch Head
plaz@netcom.com                                        66 Pyramid Plaza
plaz@io.com                             Freegate, Metaverse@io.com 7777