From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 94 14:53:50 PDT
To: hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu (Robert A. Hayden)
Subject: Re: THOUGHT:  International Electronic Declaration of Rights
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9404031534.A1135-0100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <199404032154.OAA07844@mail.netcom.com>
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Robert Hayden proposes:

> Because at the same time we are witnessing the birth of Cyberspace (an 
> archaic, and almost vulgar term, yet also most appropriate), we are also 
> witnessing a terrifying and growing movement towards the heavy-handed 
> regulation of this new world. 

Think "absence of centralized law," not "what new laws and "rights"
can we think up?" 

> What if we took it upon ourselves to write an International Electronic 
> Declaration of Rights?  A single body of ideas (not necessarily founded 
> upon the U.S. Bill of Rights) that will seek to define the underlying 
> tone of this non-existant cyberspace.  It would have to be no more that a 
> few statements about what ideals and freedoms we feel are not only 
> important, but also granted to us on the basis of being living beings.

A dangerous idea, and one I certainly can't support. I don't speak for
others, though, so will make my points here.

> What to do with it, you ask?  How do we get a bunch of geek-written 
> libertarian ideals to mean somehting?

As you'll see, I don't think Robert's ideal are very libertarian at
all. (The motivations may be, but anytime one speaks of a "right of
access" to something that costs money, that is the product of another
person's labor and ingenuity.....well, why not a right declaring
access to shelter and transportation, etc., shall not be denied based
on an inability to pay? And so on.

> Furthermore, there is precedent for International declarations of this 
> sort.  The United Nations has a Declaration of Human Rights (ftp.eff.org 
> :/pub/CAF/civil-liberty/human-rights.un) [Note, though, that I avoided 

Yes, the U.N. has quite a fascist declaration of rights. It includes
such chestnuts as a right to a job, a right to shelter, a right to
medical care, and the right of a country to control its press (cf. the
UNESCO fiasco). No thanks.

> 	Freedom to say what you wish without fear of retaliation

So if you are in my house or on my mailing list and you begin
detweilering, I have no recourse? I can't "retaliate" because that
would violate your rights?

> 	Freedom to participate in any forum without fear of retaliation

Again, Detweiler, Gannon, Hitler, and Rush Limbaugh *must* be
tolerated in all forums? Huh?

> 	Access will not be denied to a person without due process 

If I run a mailing list, or a service, or lease time on my networks or
computers, then I don't want any crap about "due process" to stop me
from throwing folks off who haven't paid, who haven't followed my
rules, who have been abusive beyond my threshold, etc. The "due
process" stuff has tainted what used to be a matter between buyer and
seller, between patron and owner, between agents free to make or not
make deals.

> 	Policies will not be implemented on the basis of race, colour,
> 		creed, gender, sexual orientation, language, religion, 
> 		political or other opinion, national or social status, 
> 		property, birth, or other status. 

OK, so a women's list can't exist in this Cyberspatial Utopia? What will
the prison term be for excluding straights from a gay list? How many
years in the gulag for running a cyberspace group that caters to
Catholics and excludes Satanists?

> Oops, sorry, went a little overboard, but you get the point (actually, I 
> like the 'access' one.  It's actually pretty important.)

"Access" to this list, to my list, to your list, to Fred's Network, to
a movie theater, to a concert, to a private gym, to whatever, is not a
"right."

This is your basic flaw--all later flaws flow from this error.

The good news, though, is that strong crypto will make attempts to
enforce such notions of "rights" a losing proposition.

--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
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W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
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"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."