From: Bill Garland <bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 94 01:35:17 PDT
To: albright@chaph.usc.edu
Subject: Re: Safeway + Your Privacy
Message-ID: <0097D140.1B631720.2317@Leif.ucs.mun.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:	Re: Safeway + Your Privacy

From: Julietta <albright@chaph.usc.edu>
Message-ID: <199404160738.AAA04602@nunki.usc.edu>

> To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
>Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
>CC: cypherpunks@toad.com

>> C'punks,
>> 
>> On Fri, 15 Apr 1994 killbarny@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> > Safeway food stores has this neat little [glitch in their]
     shopping database...                     ^               ^
---
My [BillG] inserted square brackets there...intentional change of meaning, 
remove the glitch part... related to below. [Comment about the glitch
itself interjected below below.]
---

>And Sandy Sandfort responded:
>> 
>> And what, pray tell, would be your cause of action?  Why don't you just 
>> pay cash if you are so bothered?
>
>The thing is- yes of course, one coulpd pay cash to avoid Safeway- and in
>fact, perhaps that is one must do. 

Okay. End of that problem. Now then, what's all this:

>          However, it seems to me that we a re
>touching on alarger issue here- and that is the fact that these practices
>amount to societal surveillance techniques which are being employed with
>greater and greater frequency. 

No they don't.

Let's assume for the moment that I own Safeway. Well, the original author
did mention the guy's name, in a somewhat derogatory way...anyway,

That's MY neat little database there. I can do with it what I want.
What I want to do with it is ..... IRACIS. (Increase Revenue, Avoid Cost,
Improve Service). Actually, if you want to look at a larger issue,
consider working towards achieving your goals, sort of increasing
extropy, as it were, by using intelligent technology... This is not
societal surveillance. Oh, sure, I can sell my mailing lists, and if
my list buyer wants forty year old left handed albinoes who recently
purchased books about cats, then you can be sure she will get them,
and she will sell them again, and the PTB will eventually find out.
Unless, of course, I have in some way assumed an obligation to my
Customers not to do this. The one thing I wouldn't want to do with
my neat little database is piss the Customer off.

>One has to get a bit nervous, it would seem-
>when it becomes easier and easier for the powers that be to track your
>every move- including the videos you have rented, the people you have
>spoken with or correspaonded with, the books and magazines you have read,
>etc. 

Everything is on the record. If you don't want records kept, 
well, that's absurd... records will always be kept. They wont always
be accessable by those powers you fear, if you do your homework, now.
I know I'M not putting cripple chips in any of my stores. Anyone
caught with tessera cards is fired on the spot, since this is
de facto evidence that you are a government spy. And their name goes 
into BlackNet...

>This may not be of concern to the average citizen who is content with
>going to work and going home and watching TV every night- 

Okay, let's not be concerned about them - no, wait, they are our
Customers! They will have more money to spend in my stores if they
have enough left after taxes. Gee, if they didn't have to pay so
many taxes, ...

> but for those who
>don't buy into or are actively hostile towards the dominant hegemonic
>ideology of this country- 

Hey. Cypherpunks, are we all active in our hostility now?
The BlackNet Police are watching you. For extra points, name 
the dominant hegemonic ideologies of all G7 countries. 

>      surveillance may in fact become a real concern.
>Computers make such surviellance, as we have seen, more and more feasible
>on a grander scale- both in terms of the amount of information it is
>possible to obtian about a person, and in terms of the amount of people
>which can easily be watched.

Sorry if this sounds offensive to you, as I do not wish to offend -
even though I would like to own Safeway...

My own hostility is tongue-in-cheek - but once again, I get to 
surveil my own cash registers, pos terminals, inventory systems, etc,
and my neat little database knowbot gives me a strategic advantage in 
producing my income, as well as the income of all those oppressed 
minions who are forced into employment contracts in my stores,
so you might just as well assume I am going to make use of it. 
If I don't, someone else will. In fact, even if I do someone else 
will - they already are.

---

Trying to exploit some misguided feelings about a glitch because
you feel watched - back to the original threadline for a moment - 

It seems to me, as a customer, that I want my cheques cleared fast
in the checkout line, just as I want laser bar code scanners. I hate
wasting time looking at chocolate bars. If I don't want them
to know I really do buy chocolate bars and cigarettes and that
is why I gained weight and got emphysema and that is why they
might cancel my government sponsored health care insurance,
and OH YEAH, that's why they use my SmartHealthCard as ID,
well, then, I might just stop writing cheques. 

Steal your cheques, indeed! 

Why not just go tell Mr. Wasisname whom you seem to hate so much
that his system could be cracked if someone knew what you know
and hope he gives you a reward for it. I wouldn't recommend 
blackmailing him...
---

Back to the newer sub-thread from Julie -

>	I am not suggesting a grand conspiricy, although I think that
>computer technology could potentially inadvertently give great power to a
>centralized government. I suppose that is why it is so important not to
>merely say "Hey- pay cash"- but rather to think about the further
>implications of surveillance via computer in our society.
Ciao for now,

Hey, we have already inadvertently given great power to a centralized
government. We - many of us - well, some of us, well, er, I'm sure
at least Tim May and myself, are just trying to get some of it back,
and not to give them any more.

[Actually, Tim and I seem to have given great powers to _different_ 
centralized governments, eh! You can't get away from them - yet.]

>Julie

	Bill Garland,
		whose .sig is watching you