From: GERSTEIN@SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 17:04:37 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Warrentlesss SEarches
Message-ID: <940424200411.2022b905@SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My comments are in the brackets -< >-.

	Before I start commenting, however, I would like to take this 
opportunity to once again say I DON'T AGREE WITH THESE SEARCHES!!!!! Many of 
you have taken that to be my tone, and that's not right. I was just expressing 
the opinion that I think that since all the other choices they have are 
blocked, and the residents don't seem to mind, then it's the right solution FOR 
NOW. I'm not trying to say that this should become policy, I'm just saying it's 
the only way that things could be done (at least from what I know of the 
situation).
	I don't profess to be an expert on this whole mess, I was just 
expressing my opinions. They are mine. Not yours. If you don't like them, 
either acknowledge that you don't agree with mine politely and civilly or just 
shut up. I have _NO_ time or tolerance for people who think that they are right 
just because they have such-and-such opinion about something. If you can't take 
the time to see both sides of the story, don't take the time to comment on just 
one side. Opinions are to be shared. If you don't like mine, then just don't 
read it. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just saying something 
that I feel (my god, another opinion!).
--------------
From: dwomack@runner.jpl.utsa.edu (David L Womack)
Subject: Re: Warrentlesss SEarches
To: samman@CS.YALE.EDU
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 17:09:52 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

> 
> 
> > 	Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you 
> > of coming up with an alternative.
   [snip] 	
> > 	Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live 
> > in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs.
> 
> Ok, Let me respond
> 
> 1)I live in this kind of neighborhood at home when I'm not at school.  That's
> right, I live in West Oakland, California.  I was born and raised in the inner
> city.  Don't tell me how these places are, don't tell me how they're run,   
> don't tell me how dangerous they are.  I've lived it.  Have you?  All you
> know is what you see on the news, on the television shows, and what is
> portrayed in mass media.
  [excellent points all]

-<Indeed these are excellent points. However, many people get their information 
from the mass media. I also go to school in new haven, so I have the same 
sources for information that you do. I am more than willing to admit that most 
of my info is from what I se and read in the papers and on the news. But at 
least I make the effort to stay informed.
Also, you say that you "live in this kind of neighborhood at home." That's at 
home. You are here in New Haven. And it's only like CHA. You don't live there 
so don't expect me to think that you are right just because you live in an area 
that is similar. Unless you have actually _lived_ in Cabrini Green, I will take 
your thoughts with a grain of salt.>-


> 2)I know the value of a gun in this environment.  I know how many times our 
>home has been kept safe because my father has been willing to wield a gun 
>against either intruders or against 'undersireable' characters coming 
>around(read drug dealers, crack heads, you name it).  Our part of the block 
>has a reputation for not being somewhere for these pepole to hang out because 
>my father and our neighbors have taken a stand against such scum.

  [Bravo!  Would that more people took personal responsibility!]

-<I didn't say that you didn't. And I too applaud the neighborhood 
responsibility. There is always safety in numbers, be they people or a cypher. 
But I wasn't saying how important these guns are except that the gangs have a 
hell of a lot more than the cops do.>-

> 3)Not everyone who lives in these neighborhoods is bad simply as a result of
  
  [snip...with regret] 

-<I never said the people who live in these neighborhoods are bad. I also never 
implyed it. I was only talking about the gangs. Never mentioned where they get 
their members, never mentioned where they get their guns, or drugs, or 
whatever. I was only saying how the people in the CHA buildings were fed up 
with the bs that was going on and decided to do something about it.>-

> 4)My family has not broken any law simply by trying to protect ourselves.  
>There is no way in hell that the police can be everywhere at once, even if 
>they are as efficient as you in the 'burbs seem to think they are, keeping out 
>and harassing all the minorties that come your way.  Until they get there, the 
>only way we can protect ourselves is with our guns.  We havne't broken any 
>laws, we're not the ones who have severed our contract with society by 
>choosing to live outside of it, its not us, its the people who prey upon us in 
>our homes and in our schools, and it is not us who should lose our rights, but 
>them.  By simply lumping us in with them by sheer virtue of where we live and 
>how much we earn is not only sheer folly but is also classist.

  [And, even in the finest 'burbs, the police cannot be everywhere!
   Indeed, if you study police doctrine, it very clearly states that
   police and DETER crime, they can APPREHEND criminals, but they
   cannot PREVENT crime.  Even a 5 minute response time will not solve
   the problem.  Indeed, a 1 minute response would not...because
   someone must call them first!  Still more significantly, the criminals
   are not stupid.  They go where the money is...and if it is easier to
   steal Rolex's and 'Benzs in Suburbia...guess where they'll go?  The
   city manager (!) here in San Antonio found this out when he was
   robbed in the driveway of his house.  <no, he doesn't live in the
   inner city.  >]

-<I never said the cops could be everywhere at once. I only said that the cops 
were outgunned and outmanned. You were the one who started on about that.

And don't assume that I'm from the burbs. To tell the truth, I am. But what if 
you had been wrong? I knew that I had life different than others the whole time 
I was growing up. I like to beleive that I give others a chance to prove 
themselves no matter who they are because I know that my life and education has 
been different. Just because I grew up in a 'burb doesn't mean that I'm an 
elitest jerk-off. Remember what they say about assuming things....>-


> 5)Yes we worry about the rights of the accused.  I do.  I've been arrested and
> harassed when the only crime that I committed was being in the wrong place at
> the wrong time, and not having the right skin color.  Yes, I worry about those
> rights, because for me, it might be that one day, that it is I who is on 
>trial, it is I whose rights are being questioned, and it is I who wants my day 
>in court, and unless we protect the rights of the accused, even if they don't 
>look like us, it reaps a beneficial result to society as a whole.  Thomas More 
>in the movie _Man for All Seasons_ makes an excellent point when he asks young 
>Will, if he would cut down all the laws in England to catch the devil.  When 
>Will responds in the affirmative, More asks him, "And what would you do when 
>the winds rage about you?"

  [Elegant!  My apologies for the bandwidth, but this quote needs to
  be repeated daily by the administration <and every citizen too>]

-<You seem to want to turn this into a discussion about race and class. I never 
started in on this, and am going to leave the whole thing about black/white and 
upper class/middle or lower class alone. I refuse to touch it.>- 
 
> You see, if you don't protect the rights of the accused today, there might 
>come a day when you're in their shoes and you'll wish that you still had those
>rights--remember the 5th amendment?  The 4th's prohibitions against 
>unreasonable seach and siezures?  What about the 14th's due process clause?  
>It is the rule of law, not of decree that makes this nation great, and there's 
>no way in hell, I'm going to sit idly by and watch this nation become an 
>autocracy simply because some people in suburbia decided that it would be 
>easier to do away with the rights of the accused in their racist, xenophobic 
>fears. 
> 
> Any comments?
> Ben.

   [I'm as xenophobic as the next guy ;-), but I don't think the problem
   is necessarily suburbia;  rather, it often seems that people in general,
   and irregardless of socioeconomic status, are eagerly discarding
   rights in order to escape personal involvement.  Merely voting is
   (seemingly) too tedious; and anything more demanding is (again, seemingly)
   completely out of the question.  Who was it who said "He who would
   trade a little liberty for a little security deserves neither"?]


-<Allright, I don't want to say it again, but I have to. I am not for these 
searches, I only said that they seem like the right thing for the CHA police to 
do considering their circumstances. Last time I checked, this country was a 
democracy. The guy who started the searches had to get permission from the 
people living in the apartment to start the searches. If most of the people in 
the building thought it was a good idea, then the majority can't be wrong, 
right? 
I know the Bill of Rights also, and I'm not saying they should abandon it. But 
until they can come up with something to deal with these gangs, I think that 
the searches are appropriate.


Adam Gerstein