From: dork39@wov.com (DORK39@WOV.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 07:32:42 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pseudonyms and Reputa
Message-ID: <9404112105042054@wov.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: dork39@wov.com
 Hf> This is true, but the main purpose of this technology is to prevent
 Hf> users from creating large numbers of pseudonymous accounts.  No
 Hf> technology can stop people from cooperating in an on-line forum, and
 Hf> the use of friends' or family members' accounts is also very hard to
 Hf> prevent.  So collusion at some limited level will always be possible.
 Hf> But at least it should be possible to prevent the massive use of nyms.

Hang on a mo.  I'm new here and so I don't know how this
started.  If you would be so kind, what is the "problem" here
about "massive use of nyms?"  Seems to me that is a kind of
self-limiting bookkeeping job for the user of nyms: like which
ones are for what.  Have you guys ever tried to DO a system of
nyms for any important purpose?  It is NOT a whole lot of fun:
much more resembling hard work.

You see I think there are plenty of reasons that reasonable
people would agree are valid for some people to use nyms, even
large numbers of nyms.

For example I know a lawyer who uses a lot of nyms (and anon PGP
keys) to create "clusters" of people involved with individual
legal cases. It strikes me as a very well organized system for a
good purpose.  The people involved in a given case can all talk
to each other about it, and outsiders or people in other cases
don't get to peek in, or even know what the group is about or
who's in it without going to a LOT of trouble.

Since Phil is going to release the story to the Wall St. Journal
anyway, I guess I can mention that the encryption method of
CHOICE for the valiant fighters against SLORC in Burma (who are
the worst kind of bad guys by any measure) is PGP and they are,
of course, ALL using "nyms" and sterilized anon keys and so on.
They are by FAR the heaviest PGP users in this part of the
world.  Full time trainers and the works.  But you can surely
see how they might not want to tell the thugs where to come to
get them and their families for a course in extended torture.

Now you guys with "ID" fetishes are seeing this as a PROBLEM?

Excuse me very much, but I think I need to see a LOT of
explaining about that.

Note this principle: people with a NEED for anonymity are NOT
going to want to get permission from, or even talk to, some
Central Authority first.  There is no way that you or anyone
else is going to be able to decide if any use of anonymity is
"legitimate" or not.

If there are "problems" with that, it seems to me that your
efforts are best directed into figuring out how you can live
with it, and not about how you can "control" or "prevent" it.

(Hey I am ever so sorry to hear how some people used nyms to
cheat in a game.  But somehow my reaction was "so what?" and to
bang my [Enter] key right smartly.  There are people in the
world without the time or inclination to play games.  Perhaps
sometime in the next century I might personally get enough slack
and curiosity to take a look at some computer game myself--who
knows?  But, you know, even if I do, I kind of think I will have
a real hard time working up a lot of anxiety about possible
cheating.)

In the meanwhile not only do I support nyms and other anonymity,
but I intend to use plenty of them, and will resist any attempts
to preclude that in every way I can.

GENERAL ADVICE TO ALL ONLOOKERS:  Since it looks like
self-appointed "ID police" are working hard to prevent you from
using anonymity, I suggest that if you ever think that you might
ever have a NEED for anonymity at any time in the future, that
you take a little time off and set up a supply for yourself of
nyms and so on and embed them in the system before these guys
get their prevention systems in place.  Do that NOW, because
this kind of thinking is a THREAT to you.

[It just occurs to me that this very message has a "nym" on it.
OK here is the reason: mail handling.  No offense to a group
like this, but it really qualifies as "recreational" in my
priorities, WAY after personal mail some of which might be very
urgent, business mail, some of which might be urgent, etc.  But
one inherent weakness of a "mailing list" like this is that if I
subscribed under my regular account, 50 messages a day from this
group would be all mixed in with my other mail.  Kind of like a
"mandatory newsgroup."  I'm sorry, but that is a GIGANTIC pain
in the ass and might even cause me to overlook something
important in my mail.  So, yes, for any such thing as these
mailing lists, I will set up a "nym" or "alias" or whatever you
want to call it, so I can handle that mail *separately*.  I also
have several separate accounts for different business reasons.
Is this OK with you, ID freaks?  May I have your permission to
continue to do that?]