From: whitaker@dpair.csd.sgi.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 12 May 94 19:37:39 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My skepticism/promises WAS Re: Mien Beinkpff
In-Reply-To: <0097DEAC.BB4F8100.38@Leif.ucs.mun.ca>
Message-ID: <9405040905.ZM8870@dpair.csd.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On May 4,  8:04am, Bill Garland wrote:

> So what else is on the homework list?
>
> 2. Read Schneier. Heavy into the technical cryptography stuff, to
>    be sure, but definitely required reading. Many time units.
>
> 2. b. Do the Errata list.
>

This last subtask is very important.  I remember seeing the first set of
errata, and hearing reports of Bruce's (understandable) dismay at the
publisher's cavalier treatment of the typography of mathematical formulae.

I've only recently gotten a round tuit myself, having perused the first section
of a housemate's copy, and am convinced I need my own. I'll have my own Friday
afternoon (Stacey's sells it locally), and am wondering if the most recent set
of errata are still available from Bruce.  I was on a distribution from Bruce
for these, and am wondering if the mailing list still exists.


> 4. Start a BBS. Well, maybe I can make some money at it, once I get
>    a machine and some phone lines...but I'm way out in the boonies
>    here. I'll need a satellite dish internet feed, because I can't
>    get a commercial one except through academic routes, and I don't
>    want to go through academic routes and would not be allowed, anyway.
>

Avoiding academic connections will provide some ammunition when someone tries
to drag you into the usual tired "acceptable use" arguments.

> 5. Get a Netcom account?   Is this possible for a Canadian? I'd
>    still have to telnet from some supplier here. I'll go for my
>    own service with my own satellite dish. Investors, anyone?
>    Ripe market! Send for Prospect-Us.
>

Netcom?  Only if you're a masochist.  If you try dialing in, that is.  Or doing
anything involving finger daemons.  Or...

>
>    But, isn't Unix full of security holes?  When I set up my own
>    Netcom company, won't I be hacked?  Ray?  HELP? Oh yes, I've
>    got to get into Pr0duct Cypher's product. What's a firewall?
>

Um, your own "Netcom company"?  Netcom is certainly not the best business model
for an Internet service provider.  Look at the load problems!  Their pricing
model is very, very poor.  You get what you pay for.  I have 2 accounts on
Netcom (one business, one personal).  Dialing into Netcom is useless, so all my
mail to those accounts is .forward'd to elsewhere.

If you're seriously contemplating a Netcom-like service, ignore the whiners
("But your service costs too much!") and implement a rational pricing model,
rather than an all-you-can-eat-for-one-low-price dialup policy.

> There's gold in them thar hills. I will be willing to put money
> into it, when I get some money. This process of emerging from
> bankruptcy and becoming judgement proof is interesting, but it
> takes time, and money. Also, discipline. Having proven myself
> incompetent at my financial affairs, how dare I speculate upon
> starting a bank?  Well, there it is. Fuck 'em. Feed em fishheads.
> I'm going to do it anyway. I'll even go out on a limb and say
> that I'm going to tell you all how I'm going to do it, except
> don't expect an answer Real Soon Now. I've still got to figure
> out the solution to the duplicate spending problem.
>

I don't know who you are, but it certainly makes it very difficult for anyone
to give you the benefit of the doubt when you publicly admit such a cavalier
attitude toward your own finances.  Read what you've written above, and ask
yourself if it inspires confidence.

You say, "Fuck 'em... I'm going to do it anyway..."  Well, OK.  But talk like
that, while a fine display of your Cajones, doesn't inspire me.  Good luck to
you, though.  I'm looking forward to your solution to the duplicate spending
problem.  That one alone would take a bit of work...

>
> And please, Tim, We Really Do Need The FAQ. I have heard
> you toss out tidbits about the Cyperpunks FAQ. More, please.
> We really do value your postings and ideas and caveats and
> reputation - nobody else could do it...Tim...
>

I, too, value Tim's postings.  At the Extro-1 conference this last weekend, in
a discussion on "The Extropians Virtual Community", it was noted (not a new
point) that good posts never draw the responses that objectionable posts do.
 Herein lie very large and serious issues of incentive engineering, which will
not be solved anytime soon.

[referring to Tim's discussion of "things we can't buy with tokens":]

> Yeah, I've noticed this, too. But I want to buy books, and I want
> to sell stuff to my Customers, and I want them to use my cash from
> my bank to pay for this stuff. And I want cooperating banks all using
> the same INFO_Banque Protocol (TM WmRG right now) to use my cash
> and I'll use theirs, and we'll have 700 Cypherpunks and 300 Extropians
> start up 1000 new banks all using our own developed and pgp-like-available
> software, for a small fee.
>

If you want this - or anything (desirability aside) - you're going to have to
*convince* the rest of us - part of your potential market - why we should want
it too.

> before I can do that, well, you know...homework...
>
> Still, if you want to get the ball rolling, send me $10 and I'll
> deposit it in trust, sticking my own reputation on the line ...

Who are you?  Seriously.  Do you have a reputation?  With whom?  Is this
reputation salable?

> Actually, I don't know if there are any legal implications to
> that, because my private company Macronic Systems, Inc. is incorporated
> specifically NOT as a bank, because different rules apply to a bank,

You don't know, yet you make a solicitation of funds?  Oh, yes: different rules
*do* apply to banks.  You really do need to read into North American banking
law.

> but my INFO_Banque is not incorporated anywhere. It is a virtual
> entity of mine that nobody can get at just yet.

Do the authorities know where you sleep?  This "virtual entity" is *you*.  Are
you judgement proof?  "Virtual" is such a fashionable buzzword these days.
 What do you mean by it?

> Hell, Tim, I'll
> give you all the Thornes you want for $10 - if you still want them!
> Be the first one on your block. Just to keep myself honest, my home
> address is 28 Warren Place, St. John's, Nfld. Canada A1A 2A1. Now,
> wouldn't you trust someone with a postal code like that! I hesitated
> at putting that here in a Cypherpunks message, but what the hell...
> just tell Detweiller I am armed and dangerous...
>

Well, I guess I've answered at least part of my own question... they *do* know
where you sleep.

> Yes, this is fine. But we are talking anonymous money, untraceable
> transactions, cryptoanarchy, stuff like that. We know about cheques.
> (I wish you yanks could get your spelling right!)
>

That's Yanques to you, bub.

> Agreed - of course. We've got to beat VISA/MC/AMEX/Travellers Cheques
> in transaction costs,

Have fun trying.  Do you mean "cost to credit company" or "cost to end user"?

>
> HEx is now dormant and will be for a little while yet.
> I am expecting to be able to find a place from which to run it
> real soon now.

The playing field seems to have shifted ...

Just *which* business do you plan to focus on?  Which one is the one you are
chartered as a corporate entity to pursue?  If I were a potential investor, I
wouldn't put my money onto a raft of promises.

I'm not trying to squelch your enthusiasm, but it's damned difficult for a
smart and energetic polymath (you sound like one; many of us are) to viscerally
accept the necessity of narrow specification and ruthless pursuit of a single
goal.  You need to do one thing very well, and see if it flies.  Otherwise, you
will accrete a reputation as a dabbler.

>
> I have been wanting for months to expound upon these ideas and
> seek feedback from Extropians and Cypherpunks regarding what to
> do with this reputation market. I will accept any ideas any of
> you want to donate... if they are earthshattering and they make
> some money for me and my Business Partners/Investors in the long
> run, I may even repay with digital cash royalties.

Royalties which will buy me how much petrol?  How many pairs of trousers?  How
many copies of the *Economist* or *Playboy*?  How many scoops of Baskin
Robbins?

It has to be cash with backing.  Calling it something cool doesn't convince.
 There need to be fundamentals in place.


>
> Other uses include digital timestamping - when I can get a
> machine and ups and raid box and backup site and security and
> all that other stuff I want - I will start offering services
> like this. What with all the other ambitions I have mentioned
> here in this Mein Beinkpff message/posting, I could easily spend
> a few hundred grand getting this together - if I didn't have
> a full-time job to do to feed my family, etc etc....
>

You've said this a number of times.  Are you simply expressing your belief that
you'll never really do anything?  Then why post at all?  Do you have that low
an opinion of your own abilities?  Do something.  Don't complain.  Your life is
your own.  I will be impressed when you *do* something.

> yourself, and soon there will be 700 Cypherpunks and 300 Extropians
> and all 4 IMP-Interest people all having anonymous remailers and mixes
> operating, so any sub-chain of eight INFO_Banque Protocol banks
> will virtually HAVE to be reliable for our commerce...
>

You make some interesting assumptions here.  Why?  Why should all of the people
you list above do these things?

> account. Maybe it will at first turn out to be merely digital
> cheques, but maybe if Perry lets me in on his secrets and some
> of the stuff he has learned from these six-figure guys at
> Citibank who are out trying to figure out how to capture this
> market, well maybe then we can get somewhere...
>

Are you willing to pay Perry large amounts of money for consulting?  He *might*
consider it, if it's cash up front. (Right, Perry?)

I suggest you simply dive in and start learning basic economics.  Start with
Hazlitt's *Economics in One Lesson*, Bastiat's *Economic Sophisms*, anything by
Hayek, Mises, and David (the younger) Friedman, for starters.  Don't expect
someone like Perry to open up to you with "revealed knowledge" which will make
it all clear for you.  If you're as serious about your Homework as you keep
repeating, learn the fundamentals of how the world works.

You will then have at least some of the tools to acquire more tools.

> But please, sir, can we have more? Please write about Protocol.
> Soon. Like, forget the line-by-line response you were going to
> make to _this_ message...  heh heh. (Opps, I almost said ...
> no, I can't repeat it...)


One of Tim's many graces is that he rarely makes a practice of the line-by-line
response.  I wish I could say the same of myself.


--
Russell Earl Whitaker				whitaker@sgi.com
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Technical Assistance Center / Centre D'Assistance Technique
Mountain View CA     				(415) 390-2250
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