From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 94 08:03:09 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: \"they\" and Real Bullets
Message-ID: <199408191502.LAA08028@pipe1.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The c'punks vote on continuing the "they" topic:

1 yes
1 maybe
1 no
2^512,000 plonks

The "plonks" have it, but to hell with them.

-----------------------------------


Responding to msg by wcs@anchor.ho.att.com 
(bill.stewart@pleasantonca.ncr.com +1-510-484-6204) on Thu, 18 
Aug  8:46 PM

>> From: Hal
>> What does it mean to speak of a government in 
>cyberspace?  It is the 
>> government in physical space I fear.  Its agents 
>carry physical guns 
>> which shoot real bullets.
>> 
>........................................................

>Without cryptography, all you've got left is security 
>by obscurity, the main technique used by the hackers in 
>the book;  even cryptographic systems need strong 
>enough implementations  built around the 
>mathematically-strong parts to be truly safe.



Bill's suggestion about obscurity through strong crypto as a 
defense against real bullets is a provocative version of "the 
pen is mightier than the sword" homily.

That rephrasing of the topic seems to be a good way to mix 
software and hardware issues that originated the "they" topic.

Is it possible for mind stuff and its gadgets to beat the tools 
of physical violence?  It seems that is what this list is 
about.

Jim Dixon's elegant disquisition (and that of other 
respondents) on the rise and fall of governments is less 
persuasive than his (and others') remarks, say, on the NSA spy 
machine where he (and they) shows nitty-gritty expertise.

I vote for the nit-grit as more pertinent to Hal's "real 
bullets" problem.  Sorry, but geo-political bullshit apologizes 
for real killers of all political bent, in power or out.

Geo-pol is overdone by talking heads who sound numbingly alike. 
 The distincitive sound of crypto and techno stuff is what 
charms here, because it's rarely heard in public venues.

We got to take responsibility for our individual actions, day 
by day, and resist the delusionary temptation of hallucinating 
on great problems to mask our daily marginalization.

Ahem.



John