From: blancw@pylon.com
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 94 20:39:24 PDT
To: jdd@aiki.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Are \\"they\\" really the enemy? (Systems commentary)
Message-ID: <199408190339.UAA15399@deepthought.pylon.com>
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We have met the enemy, and it is not the system.

Responding to msg by jdd@aiki.demon.co.uk (the real Jim Dixon):

Regardless of how this discussion began originally, the only 
part that I was commenting on had to do with John's remark that 
since governments & societies are both beastly, composed of 
people of that sort of character,  what is it that we think we 
are going to do if the governing system of operations is 
overthrown? From this I read:  what difference does it make if 
the present system (the best in the world) is removed, since 
the objections to it are not also resolved by that action, 
seeing as how the character of its parts (the people) remains 
the same; and what is thereby left, if it is successfully 
un-done? (anticipation: more of the same, but worse, and more 
difficult for the individual to deal with the consequences)?  
This was said in the context of a discussion of systems, with 
reference to what the system which we are governed by 
(controlled) offers, and how this compares to the feasibility & 
success of systems per se to accomplish desired ends.

It is true that systems are of different kinds & types:  from 
the non-conscious physical which existed prior to the presence 
of humans on the planet,  to fully conscious, reasoned plans of 
action (as you said:  designed).  A family may be conceived (by 
some people) as a system of operations and sometimes it 
functions that way, although lately they seem to be mostly 
dis-functional.  Families are started whether anyone is fully 
self-aware, or in control of, their nature; it's usually the 
result of other motivations unrelated to wanting to control 
mankind so that it can be morally improved and will function 
cooperatively as a harmonious whole.

But a system designed for the purpose of corralling the 
disparate energies of a large group of diverse individuals (who 
are not necessarily in the family) cannot (should not) merely 
"bumble along" in a mindless sort of way, supposing that 
everyone is going to agree to and abide by every decree which 
is delivered to them, for the satisfaction of a purpose which 
they may not fully appreciate.  Human beings are pretty 
adaptable, but if the governors blithely promulgate measures 
for living which grates on the sensibilties of the 
constituency, this is the time when surprising aspects of 
'human nature' rears a heretofore invisible head.  This is when 
they begin to 'raise hell'.  This is when you realize that it 
would have been better for someone to know a little more about 
the facts & the truth & the real nature of mental beings, so 
that these problems could have been prevented  (but 
nooooooooooooo, there have to be loud, angry debates and 
arguments and fights and wars, etc.)  Apparently, SomeBody 
didn't know what to expect, didn't plan on it, or didn't care.

I don't just propose that a person exercise, develop, and use 
their own judgement:  I recommend it.

One may be caught in a system which they were just born into 
and seems to be 'just there'.  But exceptional people, like 
Thomas Aquinas, might decide to devote their life to reason and 
seek to know what lies beyond the immediate given.  A system is 
useful for coordinating efforts towards a particular goal, if 
all of those who participate in the activities are rewarded by 
the results.   Whether it was there when you first became 
conscious of being alive or whether it is a recently bright 
idea, if it does not bring satisfactory results & returns, what 
could it make sense to suffer it?  You may not have a choice 
initially about the system within which you find yourself, but 
you will be led to the felt need to make alternative choices by 
your unhappiness with it;  you will have to decide what to do 
about it  -  stay or go, improve or tear down?  You will have 
to think about what you depend upon (or whom) for the 
realization of your requirements or desires (something the 
Bengalis realized subconsciously), and you will have to take a 
measure of your happiness/disatisfaction and try to determine 
what will work better.  Covertly or otherwise.

Blanc 

I really don't mean to prolong a discussion which lies so far 
away from the list topics;  I do think, however, that there are 
reasons for the way things are & the way things work, and the 
better grasp that one has of these reasons, the better that one 
can compute regarding the right actions to take or the 
judgements which one will bring to bear upon the actions of 
others as they affect oneself.