From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 19:41:58 PDT
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: HIT MEN
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.87.9409211835.A14646-0100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199409220239.TAA29050@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort writes:

> Tim May made some good comments about my post, albeit late
> through no fault of his own.  (What is it with Netcom, anyway?
> Some of you folks on Netdown ... er ... Netcom ought to look into
> CRL.  I've had very little trouble with them, and they are
> available in parts of the South Bay.)

I'm looking. It's all a leapfrogging game. (I can recall when Sandy
was Netless, or stuck on some kind of almost-Netless service, now he's
probably at a better service than Netcom, which is currently suffering
from its past success, probably terminally. My next jump will be to
something that supports 28.8 or better, SLIP or PPP, etc.--please, no
useless recommendations about how I should get a Linux box and run it
off of The Little Garden. And no wasted "What's wrong with Linux?"
posts :-})


...stuff elided...

> The "etc." Tim left out, is very important.  Most people would be
> revolted by an escrow company that facilitated murders.  They
> would not do *any* escrow business with such parasites.  This
> would mean such companies would have to make *all* their money as
> escrows for various illegal/immoral activities.  Statistically,
> here just isn't much of market for contract killings; even less
> for contract killing escrows.

Conflating moral opinions ("revolted," "parasites," "immoral") with
the issues about detecting and dealing with cheating is where Sandy
and I have our strongest disagreement. 

But I've made these points elsewhere and won't again. All I'll say is
that the _customers_ for various such services are not put off by the
immorality or parasite-like nature.

And the _size_ of the market is not at issue. I'm not trying to sell
this as a business venture, just analyze the effects of strong crypto,
of crypto anarchy. Demonstrably there are markets for hits, for
kidnappings, for the sale of national defense secrets, for underground
organ banks, and so on. Lots of books, articles on the size of the
underworld economy (notably, James Mills, "The Underground Empire,"
and Claire Sterling's new book, "Thieve's World").

>     Sandy says this "would run up the cost." But from what
>     basis? I've made no predictions about the costs, either
>     with or without the participation in such markets by
>     Sandy or me!
> 
> Repeat after me:  The whole world is watching, the whole world is
> watching, the whole world...

????

(I've not been responding to Sandy's jabs and argument about "dunce's
caps" and whatnot. I probably ought to delete this paragraph, lest I
be seen as flaming, but I won't. I just can't follow the point of
these sorts of arguments.)

> If the market is tiny and the world otherwise boycotts you, the
> only way to make a living offering such a service (crime escrows)
> is to charge your clients big bucks.  That's how the costs go up,
> irrespective of whether or not Tim and Sandy are in the market.

Again, I've made no claims whatsover about what the costs will be.
Showing my frustration a bit, in line with the points above, how many
more times do I have to repeat this? (Answer: None, as I won't make
this point again and will ignore any posts that argue about costs.)

I can't see any point, frankly, in arguing this further.


--Tim May


-- 
Warning: I'm using Netcom as my Internet service, and both mail and
News are being delayed by up to several days. I may not be able to
respond promptly, and may have missed other posts and messages.
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
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