From: nobody@jpunix.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 94 23:52:44 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: He's dead Jim (Chomsky)
Message-ID: <199410050651.BAA12604@jpunix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


James A. McDonald wrote:
>There is ample Chomsky material outside this quote supporting socialism,
>and as well as socialism, those measures that socialism makes necessary,
>namely silencing of dissent, mass murder, and rule by terror.
 
Ah, so now we see why Mr. McDonald feels forced to interpret everything
Chomsky writes as meaning the exact opposite of what it says - why
Mr. McDonald thinks that Chomsky *must* be trying to promote
totalitarian repression, even though Chomsky nowhere advocates repression
of any kind.

>There is ample Chomsky material outside this quote supporting socialism,

correct.

>and as well as socialism, those measures that socialism makes necessary,
>namely silencing of dissent, mass murder, and rule by terror.

Mr. McDonald infers this because, although Chomsky, if taken at face value,
does not _appear_ to be advocating "mass murder, and rule by terror",
McDonald __knows__ that:

1. a society without capitalism must be based on rule by terror.

and

2. anybody as intelligent as Chomsky knows (1).
 
thus anybody who advocates socialism is really advocating rule by terror
and so Chomsky clearly means the opposite of what he says.

Mr. McDonald's reasoning is perfect except that (1) is false.

If the "unwashed masses", the unruly mob should forget their place in life
(to be subservient to the elite, who are superior, because they claim they
are) and abolish the state, the army and the police and if they in their
foolishness should decide that they never liked capitalism and from now
on everything should be free then they have no need to oppress people like
Mr. McDonald if he wishes to try to accumulate capital by offering goods
and/or services for a price. Since everything is free in this hypothetical
society, nobody will have any reason to buy your goods and/or services
Mr. McDonald, because they can get them somewhere else for free. Thus
capitalism will never return (unless people who prefer a repressive society
restore capitalism by force) without anybody doing anything to repress
capitalism or other dissident ideas. I think this is the sort of society
Mr. Chomsky is advocating.

Of course, Mr. McDonald _knows_ that such a society is impossible because
everybody is as selfish as he is so nobody will want to share anything or
give anything away for free and they won't do so unless forced to.
Again, you are mistaken. The unwashed masses, while far from perfect, are
much more altruistic than right-wing cypherpunks such as yourself
(I realise that many cypherpunks are not right-wing) and when given the
chance they have shown that they prefer something that resembles Chomsky's
society more than the usual state/army/police-enforced capitalism. Examples
where the working class has had a brief taste of freedom are Paris, 1871,
Ukraine ~1917, Spain, 1920s and Derry, Ireland ~1969. In every case 
capitalism (Soviet state capitalism in the case of the Ukraine) was 
restored by force within a few months or years.

I don't think anyone thinks this mailing list is the right place to 
discuss your Chomsky conspiracy theories so if you haven't finished yet,
take them to alt.conspiracy.
Note: if Mr. McDonald pig-headedly insists on replying to this post on the 
mailing list, I will almost certainly ignore him, out of consideration for
the rest of you.

P.S. Lewis McCarthy wrote: "Quick, somebody mention Hitler".
Okay. Mr. McDonald is as fascist as Hitler.