From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 22:38:02 PST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Islands in the Net
In-Reply-To: <m4OpkyczBGnQ073yn@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199411190638.WAA05397@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Bostick wrote:
...
> But it _doesn't_ quack like a duck; it hoots like a loon.  Credit cards
> aren't fungible like cash, they aren't anonymous like cash*, they don't
> operate like cash from the cardholder's point of view, and they don't
> operate like cash from the merchant's point of view. 

I'm beginning to think the ideas of money, instruments, clearing,
etc., are confusing to a lot of us. Part of it is that various objects
have mix-ins from other classes. Part of it is that the legal system
has its own rules. Etc.

For example, I tend toward Amanda's point of view, that credit cards
"quack like a duck." When I make a purchase with my credit card, and
the thing clears, both the merchant and I act as if we've just
exchanged money. (In fact, one of my "credit cards," with the little
Visa symbol, etc., is actually a "debit card"...when I use it, money
is taken _immediately_ out of my account. I assume--but don't know for
sure--that the merchant's account is credited quickly, if not
immediately. 

Anyway, there are many forms of "money," with many things that make
the forms "money-like." 

It's be nice if we could chart out all these forms, see the critical
things that factor in, etc. Has such an analysis been done?
(Especially kept current, with all the various new forms, new rules,
new laws.)

> *I don't see any reason why a credit card couldn't be anonymized, with
> some kind of "Julf-style" bank account and an any-bearer-gets-to-use-this
> card.  People might want some kind of PIN protection if they're
> concerned about losing the card.  But the banks haven't chosen to offer
> such a thing, and they just aren't available.

This has come up several times. I'll let others recount what they
know.

The consensus about major banks not offering "anonymous cards" is that
two factors are at work:

1. The public has not yet woken up and asked for a card which
_obscures_ their purchases. (Some people were proposing that we try to
convince American Express, as an example, to issue a "Privacy Card.")

2. Truly anonymous cards, like bank accounts in false names, are not
encouraged in the U.S. Things like Social Security numbers, IRS
reporting requirements (interest paid, for example), etc., all make
truly anonymous cards pretty rare.

(Even the "cash deposit" cards are not anonymous.)

Of course, I'm not saying one can't find ways to get credit cards
issued under assumed identities. It probably happens a lot. But this
is a different issue, I argue.

There could be a legal way to issue true "cash credit cards," similar
to the cash-charged-up phone cards, but I have no idea what would be
needed. Offshore-based cards may still be the best bet, as several
folks (the usual suspects) have noted; a bank in the Caymans issuing a
Visa card, for example. (Though the "Frontline" report on
money-laundering mentioned ATM and credit card "scams" as a way to
launder money that was being stopped, so...)

--Tim May

-- 
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