From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 20:31:37 PST
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McCoy is Right! New Mail Format to Start Now.
In-Reply-To: <v01510103ab16b28a3560@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199412160431.UAA03092@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:

> After reading many of your posts on the MIME issue, I have come to the
> conclusion that you _are_ wedded to a past long gone. I have not give up
> the hope that we will one day convice you stop accessing the net via the
> worst possible interface, a terminal server. The way you are using the net
> is through 1950's technology with 1950's results.

Hmmhh. I was _there_ in the 1950s, I _knew_ the 1950s. And let me tell
you, this is *not* the 1950s. (Apologies to Lloyd Bentsen.)

It may be backward, but it is how a huge fraction of the list accesses
the Net. Am I wrong on this? Dial-up access to local POPs is a fact of
life for many, many people. Do a "who cypherpunks" on the list and
look at the sites. Many will be dial-ups, others will be access to
university machines, via dial-ups, etc. Others will be a mix of
corporate machines, some with better connectivity than others, and
many with proprietary e-mail systems, such as VAXMail and the like. My
guess is that fewer than 20% of the list are directly SLIP- or
PPP-connected, with good access to the tools praised here by Amanda,
Perry, you, and others.

It might be a good idea to get some real statistics on this. We did
this a couple of years ago, and there was talk about doing it again.

For reasons I just addressed in another post, I foresee being on a
dial-up (not a SLIP or PPP, that is) for a while. And I have relatively
few complaints about it. My service provider keeps the 9446 current
newsgroups, provides ftp and suchlike tools, and I don't have to be a
sysadmin. Frankly, if I have to choose between not being able to see
someone's MIMEd GIF and becoming a Unix sysadmin for my own site, I'll
skip the GIFs.

> You say that you use stuff that is far beyond ASCII and I believe you.
> However, one wouldn't know from hearing what tools you are using to access
> the net. You are competent, a computer person, but still you don't seem to
> understand that reading mail via a terminal server and elm is like having
> an oxen pull your car.

Even Perry admits to using emacs, and Unix mailers like elm are not
exactly oxen. (I have a choice of several mailers, the usual ones. Big
deal.) I also have commercial Eudora, the PowerMac version no less, so
my offline mailer is adequate. This still doesn't mean non-ASCII
(graphics, fancy fonts, equations) can be plausible placed in
messages--and communicated to the list for reading/viewing.

> I hate to break it to you, but it is no longer "most of us" who don't use
> these tools. And of the ones that don't use them, only very, very, few
> don't have them available.
> 
> >Please don't characterize my views as Luddite wishes for a simpler
> >world.
> 
> I don't think that you are wishing for a "simpler world". I believe that
> you haven't realized that the "simpler world" has long vanished in the dust
> of history and that you are one of the last hold outs living in an era
> past. Please don't be the last to leave.

I'd like to see some evidence that I am one of the last of my tribe.

Call me Ishi.

--Tim May


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