From: Nesta Stubbs <nesta@nesta.pr.mcs.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 18:58:04 PST
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Experiments and Toys vs. the Real Thing
In-Reply-To: <199501091946.LAA06410@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9501092044.B8850-0100000@nesta.pr.mcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Timothy C. May wrote:

I was one who wrote a post saying that a data haven should support all 
files, including porno and such things, and that filtering would be bad 
karma.  I was under the assumption then that we were talking about fully 
operational, well established Data-havens, as in I thought were were 
speaking mostly hypotjetically.  I agree with tim when it comes to the 
experimental stage of a project.

> Digital cash is more clearly still at the experimental level, as are
> anonymous markets (like BlackNet), data havens, and so forth.
>
I would like it if the person who is working ont eh datahaven code would 
give us soem more information, like what it does, what are the plans for 
it etc..  DataHaven is a vague word.

Blacknet is going on right now, only none of uf are involved in it, not 
to say I'm so k-rad and kool that i am underground and involved in it, 
but eh anonymous market is alive today, JUST that it isn't bieng studied, 
like one such as BlackNet concievably owuld have been. There are 
definetly people making anon. transactions out there.

> The recent claims that nascent "data havens" _must_ support all files,
> including hard-core porn, weapons secrets, etc. seems to be an example
> of this. I'm not for censorship, just concerned that the data haven
> _experiments_ are not secure enough, not robust enough, to actually
> carry high-visibility files.
> 
 
I was refering to the finished, established project, and not the 
experiment/study level.

> (And let's not forget "snatch teams" that grab foreign nationals
> suspected of crimes...Israel, Iraw, Iran, and the U.S. have grabbed
> people in other countries. And more common is simple execution. If a
> Swedish data haven carried files related to U.S. operations, and the
> data haven location was known--part of what I mean by saying the
> enabling technologies do not yet exist--then various measures would be
> applied. Diplomatic, equipment sabotoage, even killing the operators.
> I'm not being Ludlumesque here...clearly such "threats to national
> security" would be seen as justifying various reactions. Especially to
> send a message to other potential operators.)
>
Sterling's _Islands In The Net_ is a must read for this topic matter.  
In this book, the DataHaven operators maintain security thru the data 
they horde, by hoding it over poeples heads, and also by just plain 
technical savvy(ala action thrillers hehe)
 
> --Tim May, who thinks the first real data havens will come under
> intense attack and so had better be secure from the start
>
I would like to help get them off the ground, by either providing help 
with code, policy, or just another head in teh game.  They are a techno 
fetish of mine, I mean I'm even nymed after one, Nesta Stubbs, from 
_Islands In The Net_