From: "Patrick J. LoPresti" <patl@catfish.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 14:12:29 PDT
To: tcmay@sensemedia.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Netscape the Big Win
In-Reply-To: <ac33f977080210043230@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <199507202112.RAA21906@catfish.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>>>>> "tcmay" == Timothy C May <tcmay@sensemedia.net> writes:

 tcmay> Seriously, the world is what the world is. I really don't care
 tcmay> about "FSF" one way or the other, and will join the rest of
 tcmay> the world (apparently) in using Netscape.

I am not ignoring the reality of the situation.  I was not arguing
with your main point, which was that Netscape is going to take over
the world.  We all agree on that, I think.

My point was that your criticism of existing efforts is inappropriate.
I submit that the tools you marginalize are more responsible for
current PGP usage than everything you have ever written combined.  (I
intend no more offense with my comments than you do with yours; I am
just trying to make my point.)

 tcmay> And yes, I am "marginalizing" the work that anyone does on
 tcmay> "fringe" projects like Linux, which will likely always remain
 tcmay> in the ghetto of Unix hackers who want a cheap Unix running on
 tcmay> their cheap 486 boxes...it just ain't gonna take over inside
 tcmay> corporations or amongst the many folks like me.

(Tangential point) I think you underestimate Linux, which has an
installed base of a million or so systems.  But that is a different
topic entirely.

 tcmay> Frankly, one of the great boons of my current setup is that I
 tcmay> can completely get away from Unix tools and commands, away
 tcmay> from my Unix shell account at Netcom, away from the arcane
 tcmay> commands that vary from program to program, away from tin and
 tcmay> elm and emacs...my fingers are already forgetting the emacs
 tcmay> commands!

(Another tangential point, and blatant plug) To verify a PGP signature
from within Emacs, I click on the "Mailcrypt" menu bar item and select
"Verify Signature".  When I lack the public key of the signer,
Mailcrypt offers to fetch it for me from BAL's Web interface.  I
answer "y", and a few seconds later I see the output of PGP on the
public key (so I can check the key signatures).  I confirm that I want
to add the key to my ring, and then the original signature check
completes.

It isn't Netscape, but it isn't rocket science, either.  I agree,
though, that no matter what the interface looks like, it won't be
adopted by the masses if it doesn't run on Windows and Macintosh.

 tcmay> And the newsreader is a matter of taste...it does all I want
 tcmay> it to do, and I'm a fairly heavy reader of News and
 tcmay> contributor to Usenet groups. I survived with "tin" for
 tcmay> several years, so anything is possible.

(Yet another tangential point) If you ever try a news reader with
score files, I think you would be converted.  Especially adaptive
score files.

 tcmay> I don't think the packages I "denigrate" are the key to the
 tcmay> future widespread use of crypto. Look at the actual usage
 tcmay> patterns.

Yes, look at the current usage patterns for PGP.  It's far from being
everyone, but it is even farther from being no one.  Existing
interfaces do make a difference.

 tcmay> Please, your insulting tone ("your musings," "try writing some
 tcmay> code..") is uncalled for. You have your views, I have mine.

Point taken.

You just seemed to be playing the armchair quarterback, telling
developers that they are wasting their time when they are, in fact,
doing everything they can do at present.

Nevertheless, we are, I think, largely on the same team.  I apologize
for my tone.

When it becomes feasible to do what you are asking for Netscape, I am
sure that someone will do it.  At the moment, it is largely out of our
hands, since the Netscape interface is totally controlled by Netscape
Communications...

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