From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 18:35:44 PDT
To: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Subject: Re: Only 1/3 of Government Computers Down So Far
In-Reply-To: <01HTVAYUCH6W90PB08@delphi.com>
Message-ID: <199508100134.VAA03975@panix4.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



KALLISTE@delphi.com writes:
> 	Many people are interested in cryptology because they don't
> want the NSA (among others) invading their privacy.

So, the question is this: do people want to follow the standard "ooh,
lets shudder at the conspiracy theories" track, and fall flat on their
faces, or do they want to see cryptography implemented and widely
deployed?

The noise levels on this list have driven most of the important crypto
types off it. People like Phil Karn and Steve Bellovin, who actually
implement stuff, aren't here any more. Instead, we have a vast flood
of ciphergroupies who love to post the latest funny bit they found on
the net, discuss whether David Koresh was being unfairly persecuted,
and how many bits of toe lint they found last week.

What we used to have was the cafe where the politically motivated
cryptographers hung out and gossiped. Now we have an open sewer in
which the occassional pearl still floats, and the cryptographers are
mostly gone.

Those of us who want to discuss cryptography here have been displaced.
If your goal is to impede communication about cryptography, you've
admirably succeeded. You've cut off one more place where people were
discussing how to deploy real-world solutions.

Tim May is wrong. I don't care what you call a "cypherpunk" -- thats
your business. However, the useful people *are* the people who write
code, spend long hours working to get standards implemented, work
lobbying in Congress, etc. Those of you who just rant, like Tim, were
very useful two years ago, but its getting rather thin listening to
you guys make it impossible to discuss real work while you blather.
(Sorry, Tim. However, as long as you are going to call me "abusive" I
might as well speak my mind. If you are going to do the time, might as
well do the crime.)

> The Foster story concerns the chief NSA privacy-invasion of modern
> times: spying on domestic banking transactions.  So it's relevant.

Actually, what you've been posting has been even below the standards
of journalistic integrity (i.e. few) that you find on a Pacifica radio
station.

I don't even care if all the conspiracies are real. Isn't what is out
in the open enough? If the invasions of privacy that the government
acknowledges and the crap like Clipper that they try to foist on us
isn't horrifying enough, what weak-assed conspiracy theory that
someone came up with while tripping is going to do it for you.
Reality is frightening enough. FINCEN is real. The NSA really spied on
people at least until the congressional hearings in the '70s. The
government really invades privacy every day. Why do I need crap?

> 	The Grand Inquisitor role is getting a little old.  So if
> you want to continue to play it, my response is:  Fuck Off.
> 
> -Orlin

Frankly, Orlin, I think you are, with respect to the goals we are
trying to advance here, a useless lump of flesh. I've spent about
$50,000 of my own money trying to make the internet safe for
root-eaters like yourself. I've spent months of my life struggling to
get RFCs out, and I'm spending most of this month locked in my
apartment writing code. Right now, we are coordinating an effort to
try to get get IPSEC widely implemented in the next several months and
deployed by spring. What do you do, exactly, other than generate chaff
to make it impossible for any real work to be seen on the radar?

When people bring up real work, like cryptographic libraries or Wei's
stuff or the work I've been doing in the IETF and that sort of thing
people like Matt Blaze notice, and maybe Ray Cromwell and Hal Finney
(cypherpunks both, not ciphergroupies) try to discuss things, but the
folks like you basically drown everything out by making more noise
about random conspiracy garbage.

Frankly, if anyone is helping the NSA, its you. They don't want to see
universally deployed crypto. You could be out trying to spread
cryptography by coding, by handing people crypto when they need it, or
any one of dozens of other things. Instead, what you are doing is
making it impossible for people to try to get work done.

I have no idea what you are like personally. Maybe you're a nice,
smart guy. Maybe you are really a useful person in your other life.
However, I don't think your posting more conspiracy tracts is
improving life as we know it.  You have become an impediment -- a lump
of rock in the highway. You aren't part of the solution -- you are
part of the problem.

Perry