From: Alan Olsen <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:30:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Rant] Flame threads
Message-ID: <2.2b7.32.19951225030300.008f8cbc@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Well, this is getting real unpleasant...  So far we have at least three
distinct flame threads going on and all of them are being pretty fucking
pointless.

I am gpoing to address a few issues concerning this just to get them off my
chest and then I am going to drop the issue.

Alice and the Net Scrooge thread:

I agree that Netscape owes a bit more to people who help them out, but some
of your statements come from so far into left field that they are suffering
from lack of oxygen.  Where does AT&T come into the break of SSL and
Netscape?  AT&T may licence Netscape, but they do not own it.  As a licence,
I cannot see how they would bear any financial responsibility for fixes,
breaks or other security breaches.  The only reason I can see for the anger
directed against them is because they are a big company.  Still, your
arguments do not follow.

As for Netscape...  They have been trying pretty damn hard to clean up their
act.  They are actually FIXING bugs that are being reported and not just
forwarding them to Dave Null.  This is an incredible improvement over past
versions.  I think the IPO has had a positive effect becuase now they have
to act like a real company and have real quality control.  This is a good
thing!  Hopefully they will keep up the good work on bug fixes.  (We will
see if they have yet fixed the HP4 print header bug in 2.0b4 though...)

The Anti-Jeff/Matt/AT&T/Netscape thread:

People are not a wholly owned subsidiary of their company.  I judge people
by their actions and not who they work for.  Jeff Weinstien has worked
pretty hard to get things done right within Netscape.  That is not an easy
feat.  (I know this from experience.)  He may sound defensive at times, but
who would not after some of the shit he has to take from idiots who have no
clue as to what it takes to get things done in a corporate environment.  So
far he seems to be doing a pretty damn good job for Netscape and the crypto
community at large.

As for Matt Blaze.  He has done more for the crypto community as a whole
that most anyone I can name.  His accomplisments are pretty impresive.
Anyone who can break Clipper and describe the break in just eight pages
deseves a bit more credit than the anon-twits give him credit for. (Plus CFS
and the various other crypto code he maintains and distributes.)

So far the attacks on Jeff and Matt as being somehow corrupt seem more to
weaken any efforts this list has and not to help them.

Fred Cohen:

You have no respect for the freedom or opinions of others.  You expect the
net to operate under your terms and under your rules.  You want people to be
"responsible".  From what I have read here that seems to mean "punishable".
I do not like some of flames I have seen, but I do not threated legal action
against them. You have.  I have meet the keeper of the list.  He is a very
nice guy and i would not want to see him go through hardship because of some
whacko with a faschist control complex.

Fred -- Go somewhere else.  I suggest you get together with Dan Gannon and
his ilk.  I think you will find him more to your liking.  (Or maybe the
$cientologists.  They are into sueing anyone who disagrees with them. I am
sure they will help you start a list with your control fetishes in mind.
Maybe you can borrow a few of their lawyers.)

BTW, Fred has been killfiled on my mailreader. I am sick of listening to the
twit.  To understand what an honor this is...  He is the only person I have
killfiled on this or any mailinglist.

Sorry to inject this much noise to the list.  I am pretty damn hot over the
amount of shit I have waded through in the last few days.  The legal threats
from Fred were the final straw.  If toad.com ever needs financial support
fighting legal battles from twits such as Fred, they will have my support!

I know Perry will find all of this off topic.  It probibly is...  It just
needed to be said due to my own peace of mind.

Back to the regular scheduled flamethrowing...



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