From: frankw@in.net (Frank Willoughby)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 08:43:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Massey, CEO of Compuserve, on Internet
Message-ID: <9512302338.AA07501@su1.in.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter D. Junger writes:

8< [snip]

>One should also notice that Bavaria is only one state in the German
>Federal Republic; this case is more like Texas investigating
>Compuserve than the United States federal government investigating
>Compuserve.  Bavaria is the stronghold of what can properly be called
>the (Catholic) Religious Right in Germany.  It should also be noticed
>that in general German publications and television seem to be less
>constrained in publishing materials that in the United States would be
>called ``indecent'' by some than are United States publications and 
>broadcasters.
>

Peter has made some rather astute and accurate observations.  
(I particularly liked his analogy of Bavaria & Texas.  From my
experience, I would say that Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.)

While the Computserve incident in Germany may provoke outrage here 
& across the Internet, given the culture and other factors, the 
incident itself was rather inevitable (really).  After having lived
in Munich & Stuttgart, I'm just surprised it took so long to happen.  
(Then again, the wheels of bureaucracy do spin slowly).  8^)  I'm 
not saying I agree with their actions, but I think I do understand 
the mentality behind the actions.

I would venture to guess that the Bavarian State Police were trying
to enforce the JugendSchutzGesetz (Protection of Minors Law).  These
laws are posted in every restaurant, bar, etc.  As indicated by its 
title, the law basically serves to protect minors from the evils of 
the adult world.  It spells out what ages a person has to be to drink 
beer, hard liquor, etc, and covers curfews and other similar topics 
which serve to protect the youth.

The Compuserve censorship may be the result of an interpretation or 
enhancement of the JSG - in that because Compuserve really has no way 
of knowing the age of individuals who have access to pornographic 
materials, it is not capable of fully implementing the JSG.  (Although 
how this differs from cable TV (which shows porno movies and can't 
controll who sees them is beyond me).

Without commenting on the actions of the Bavarian State Police or 
Compuserve, I think that perhaps we are applying our standards to 
an incident in another culture - without viewing it in the context 
of that culture or country.  (In other words, comparing apples and
oranges.)

FWIW, there are a few differences between the USA and Germany which 
are related to the Compuserve incident and which may help to understand
why the police performed their actions.  I am not saying I agree with 
their actions, only that I think I understand the mentality behind the 
actions.  Anyway, here are a few differences:

1) Germans (and foreigners who live/work there) enjoy fewer freedoms 
   than we do - including freedom of speech, press, assembly, movement,
   etc.

2) The legal system is different than in the USA.  I'm not a lawyer, 
   but my impressions were that the police had far more liberties 
   with what they (legally) can do than do our counterparts here or 
   in other countries.  The OJ fiasco probably couldn't have happened
   in Germany (and he probably also wouldn't have gotten off).

3) There is no real separation of Church & State like we have here in 
   the USA.  As a result, the impact of the Catholic & Lutheran churches 
   on the German legal system & government is significant.  It has also 
   led the the government subsidizing (ie - providing public funds to) 
   the churches.

FWIW, the German government (like every other government on the planet)
is ill-equiped to handle something like the Internet and its impact on 
the social & legal systems of that country.


FWIW, the above is my opinion based on having lived there for over 9 
years.

Best Regards,


Frank

>--
>Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
>Internet:  junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu    junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu

PS - The rest of this mail contains an elaboration of the points mentioned
     earlier.  They were separated from the summarized info mentioned above
     for those who are short on time or have no interest in the long version.

PPS - Four really neat things about Germany are the BDSG (Privacy Act), the
      mandatory (by law) 6-weeks paid vacation for all full-time employees,
      their sausages, and skiing.  (Their sausages are really great.  You
      might even say they're the best of the wurst.  The skiing can be flakey
      on occasion, though.)  8^)  8^)  8^)

PPPS - Have a Happy & Prosperous New Year!  8^)

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The following is an elaboration of the above differences, based on 
my observations while I was there.  I'm not taking a stand one way 
or another on these differences in this mail, just indicating what 
they are.

1) Germans (and foreigners who live/work there) enjoy fewer freedoms 
   than we do.  A few examples:

   - it is mandatory (ie - a law) that citizens & foreigners register 
     their domicile address with the police.  (When you move, you have 
     to unregister with the police in your old city, & register with 
     them in the new city).

   - it is not trivial to obtain a permit for a weapon (or obtain a 
     hunting license).

   - it is against the law to monitor police & government frequencies

   - until 1984/85), the radio & TV media were a monopoly of the State 
     (or government).  Commercial (ie - non-government owned) radio &
     TV stations didn't exist until then.  

   - the freedom of speech is more restricted than here.  Use of the 
     swastika symbol is prohibited by law.  Groups attempting to deny
     the abuses of WW II or promoting the rhetoric of the Hitler regime
     are outlawed.  

   - all demonstrations must be registered (and approved) by the police
     before they can ocur.

   - mandatory store closings (general).  Most stores are open 'til 6pm 
     on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday.  They stay open late 
     ('til 8:30pm) on Thursdays.  Saturdays, the stores are open 'til 
     2pm unless it is the first Saturday of the month (& then 'til 5pm).

   - all TVs, radios have to be registered with the BundesPost (and you
     will be charged a fee).  The BundesPost uses vans with have the 
     ability to detect which apartments have TVs (as well as which channel
     the individual is watching).  (I have seen the vans & have had a 
     brief conversation with some of the BP employees who have used this
     equipment).


2) The legal system is different than in the USA.  I'm not a lawyer, but 
   my impressions were that the police had far more liberties with what 
   they (legally) can do than do our counterparts here or in other countries.
   On the plus side, the police are very efficient (but having access to 
   a nationwide databank about every person in the country helps to increase
   the efficiency in catching crooks).

   - One law in particular is the JugendSchutzGesetz (Protection of 
     Minors Law).  The JSG spells out exactly what ages a person has
     to be to drink beer, hard liquor, etc.  (I believe it also covers
     curfews, movie ratings, etc.).  The Compuserve censorship may be
     the result of an interpretation or enhancement of the JSG - in
     that because Compuserve really has no way of knowing the age of 
     individuals who have access to pornographic materials, it is not
     capable of fully implementing the JSG.  (Although how this differs
     from cable TV (which offers porno movies is beyond me).

   - One thing to be admired, though, is the German Information/Data
     Privacy Act (BundesDatenSchutzGesetz = BDSG).  The BDSG is one
     of the most stringent privacy laws in the world.  Actually, it
     is a shame that we don't have a law like the BDSG (with a few 
     minor changes).  (Our Privacy Act here in the USA is a joke).
     The abuses of privacy which result in the collection and 
     distribution of personal data here in the USA is simply 
     unbelievable.

   - I also had the impression that in the German court system, the 
     burden of proof is on the accused, not the prosecution.  This is
     somewhat analagous to the military courts here in the USA.


3) There is no separation of Church & State like we have here in the USA.

   - All persons who are subject to taxes are required to pay a Church 
     Tax (Kirchensteuer) of 1% of their pay to support a few of the major
     churches in Germany (primarily, the Catholic, the Lutheran, and
     the Jewish religious institutions).  The only exemption to this is
     for those who fill out an affadavit that they have formally left
     their church or those whose voluntary contributions to their church
     exceed 1%.  BTW, the German tax laws also differentiate between 
     members of the 3 churches mentioned above & others.

   - Major religious institutions are subsidized & receive financial 
     support by the government (from the Kirchensteuer), as well as 
     additional funding for the preservation & upkeep of historic 
     religious buildings, etc.  I remember seeing an investigative 
     report on German TV which provided a list of which religious 
     institutions received how much money and the reason why those 
     funds were given to the churches by the government.  I don't 
     remember the acutual sums involved, but they were rather large 
     (hundreds of millions of dollars or above, if my memory serves).

   - The Catholic & Lutheran churches in particular have enormous 
     political clout (far more than they ever could here in the USA) 
     and are a force to be reckoned with.  Although from my observations, 
     the Catholic church has more clout than the Lutheran.  Their clout
     has a major impact on the political & legal sytems in Germany.
     An illustration of this is that one of the top two political 
     parties in Germany is the CDU (Christian Democratic Union).

   - The ability of a church's missionaries to proselytize is heavily
     regulated/restricted - particularly if they are not one of the 
     top three churches mentioned earlier.

   - In general, the top 3 churches mentioned above are given preferential
     treatment.  Other denominations are generally ignored by the German
     government.

In conclusion:
None of the above statements are intended to be critical of Germans
or of the German government, or anything/anyone else.  These are 
merely my personal observations.
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