From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:50:22 PST
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a lawyer in the house?
In-Reply-To: <acecee610a021004a5f2@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951208034633.18878C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 2:27 AM 12/8/95, sameer wrote:
> >> > You mean if you give me your key the police can get it from me without a
> >> > warrant? What if I don't want to give it up, and you don't? How would the
> >> > police get it without a warrant?
> >>
> >> Yes.  Unless it could be shown there their was an expactation of privacy
> >> in the transfer, or that there was an understanding that you intended this
> >> to be a confidential matter.  Or in the alternative, that the
> >
> >        I do not understand.
> >
> >Alice has Alice gives Bob her key.  Cop wants Alice's key.  Cop tells
> >Bob "I want Alice's key, you need to give it to me. I don't have a
> >warrant."
> >
> >How is this different from
> >Bob has key. Cop want's Bob's key. Cop tells Bob "I want your key,
> >you need to give it to me. I don't have a warrant."
> >
> >
> >        sheesh, what a fucked up legal system.
>                         ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> EXON WARNING! This message has just exposed the author, the toad.com
> system, and all those who pass it on to fines of not less than $10,000!
> 
> But I share Sameer's confusion. If cops show up at my door, they must, it
> seems to me, present proper warrants before they can _enter_ my premises,
> or _search_ my premises. Something given to me, whether a letter, a key, a
> photo, etc., is essentially *my property* and may not simply be taken away
> from without due process.

There are MANY circumstances where a presence may be searched without a 
search warrant per se.  For example, a search of the premises incident to 
a lawful arrest.

> 
> I hope Black Unicorn is incorrect in his point.
>

Which point?  If you mean that the key is your property and not violable 
simply by virtue of that fact, then I have to tell you that you are over 
estimating the amount of protection you have.  You have to demonstrate a 
definate expectation of privacy in the key first.  Giving it to Alice 
tends to weaken your case in that regard.

Does the fact that you have given your key to Alice mean that the police 
can violate OTHER protections that the 4th amendment provides, of course 
not.  The police cannot just break down your door because you gave 
your key to Alice and it happens to be in your house.  Alice has 
nothing to do with the expectation of privacy you have in your 
house.  However, once they have their hands on the key, warrant or not, if 
you have not demonstrated an expectation of privacy in the item, you're not 
going to get Fourth amendment protections.

If I am talking in the wrong direction, present me with a direct question 
and I will try to confine my musings to it's precise context.

> --Tim
> 
> Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> Corralitos, CA              | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^756839      | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 

---
My prefered and soon to be permanent e-mail address: unicorn@schloss.li
"In fact, had Bancroft not existed,       potestas scientiae in usu est
Franklin might have had to invent him."    in nihilum nil posse reverti
00B9289C28DC0E55  E16D5378B81E1C96 - Finger for Current Key Information