From: jon.roland@the-spa.com (Jon Roland)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 05:27:48 +0800
To: ca-firearms@shell.portal.com
Subject: Jim Quinn interview of James Norman (edited)
Message-ID: <199512120247.SAA12705@nova.unix.portal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have further attempted to edit the interview transcript, cleaning up
spelling, punctuation, and occasionally guessing what was probably taken
down wrong, from context, (and without the benefit of hearing the actual
interview tape).
============================================================================

The following is a Radio Interview between James Norman, 
formerly Senior Editor of Forbes Magazine and now with Media 
Bypass Magazine and Jim Quinn, DJ of WRRK 96.9 FM in Pittsburgh. 
In this interview from December 7th, they discuss issues of 
national importance and STUNNING IMPACT. Essentially they give 
out the reason for Vincent Foster's Death, and the fact that 
the "resignations" of the Congresspersons are NOT for policy 
reasons but because they have been caught with millions in 
corrupt funds in Swiss Banks. Read this to learn what the 
"mainstream media" doesn't ever tell you... 


Quinn's Interview with Jim Norman
 
QUINN: Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes Magazine, and 
currently writing for Media Bypass Magazine after having 
uncovered Caspar Weinberger's Swiss bank account (we do get 
punished for some of the truths we uncover, do we not?). Jim is 
on the phone with us this morning. Good Morning, Jim. 

NORMAN: Hi, how are you? 

QUINN: Pretty good. I want to give people a chance to get an idea 
of what it is we are going to launch into after 8 o'clock, and I 
want to give some background into this. Is it fair to say that 
since Iran-Contra that the government has sort of been involved 
in the drug business? 

NORMAN: Yes, it goes way back before then, actually. It goes back 
even to the Vietnam War days -- remember the Golden Triangle, 
Laos, Cambodia and all that, Pakistan and Afghanistan, but it was 
always on a much smaller scale. What apparently happened was that 
in the 80s we got into it in a big way, basically nationalizing 
the wholesale importation of drugs from Central and South America. 
The idea was that we control it somehow that way; instead, it has 
just become the tail wagging the dog, I think. 

QUINN: It's become the funding source for just about anything 
that the government covertly wants to do, and for the moneys that 
various elements of the government don't want to ask the Congress 
for, nor do they want Congress to know about. 

NORMAN: Right. And it's an arms business, too. They are kind of 
all tied up together. 

QUINN: So it's arms and drugs? 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: Kenneth Starr is currently our Whitewater prosecutor, and 
I have long said on this show that I find Ken Starr interesting 
but also troubling in that there are many elements to the 
Whitewater scandal. Part of the laments have to do with banking 
and have to do with Madison Savings and Loan, check kiting, stuff 
that went on with the Arkansas Development Financial Authority, 
but basically there are really two elements -- there is Whitewater 
and then there is all the stuff with Mena Airport, Iran-Contra, 
drugs into the country, various unexplained deaths, one of them 
Vince Foster, the possibility of espionage on the part of the 
first lady, and all of this lies behind a brick wall that Mr. 
Starr has been positioned upon to make sure that they get Clinton 
but that the fire doesn't burn past that wall; because on the 
other side of that wall are Republicans and Democrats. Am I right? 

NORMAN: That's right. He is not looking at Mena; he doesn't have 
the authority to from Janet Reno. He does have authority to look 
at the Vince Foster death, but I think only inasmuch as it relates 
to the Whitewater situation. The whole thing is hemmed in and 
beyond that is this whole national security blanket that has been 
thrown over big parts of this thing that you couldn't touch if you 
wanted to. 

QUINN: It's interesting, I find, that Dr. Henry Lee, who was part 
of the defense team for the Simpson trial, has ended up working on 
the Vince Foster affair. The word that I get is that he is going 
to say it was indeed a suicide. You have to remember something 
about Dr. Henry Lee -- he was, oddly enough, the guy that was 
called in to do some work on the Danny Casolaro death down in 
Martinsburg, way back in the early nineties. Was it 1991? 

NORMAN: I think it was 1991. 

QUINN: This was that reporter that you may have heard about that 
was found dead in a motel room, supposedly from a self-inflicted 
wound, even though the papers (a year's worth of investigative 
reporting) were all missing. He was working on the story that he 
called the "octopus" and basically it's the same story that you 
are working on, isn't it?
 
NORMAN: Yes, I know I'm talking to a lot of the same sources. 
Danny supposedly slashed his wrists twelve times, sometimes deep 
enough to cut the tendon. 

QUINN: Yeah, right. And his files were all missing. Sure, 
there's a suicide. Right. And they embalmed his body before they 
even had a chance to inform his parents that he was dead. So it's 
another "Arkanside." 

NORMAN: George Williamson, who is an investigative reporter out 
of San Francisco, has been working on that. He has come up with 
all kinds of stuff -- other witnesses that have disappeared, 
people in the hotel who just aren't there anymore -- disappeared 
mysteriously. 

QUINN: It's interesting. There are a lot of people who are 
witnesses to various deaths involved with this Arkansas crowd, 
Danny Casolaro for one. Also, the two young boys on the railroad
tracks down in Arkansas who stumbled on the drug operation. A lot 
of the witnesses around that have met violent and untimely deaths 
as well. So here are a great deal of ugly people involved in 
this. We are going to get down to what it all means in terms of 
government corruption and scandal of immense proportions that 
touch both parties. This is really nonpartisan. The fact that I 
don't happen to like "President Pantload" doesn't have a whole 
lot to do with this; he was just sort of a guy who happened to be 
there with his hand out at the time. It all goes back to the late 
70's, right Jim? 

NORMAN: Yeah, and even before that. Let's start with the early 
80s when Bill Casey came into office in the CIA under Ronald 
Reagan. That's when our government decided to embark on this 
amazing and extremely unbelievably successful effort to spy on 
the world's banks. We did it! We have been spying on world 
banking transactions for more than a dozen years. The way we do 
it is by basically forcing foreign banks, wittingly or 
unwittingly, to buy bugged software and bugged computers that 
let our NSA (National Security Agency) which is the intelligence 
arm of the government, to basically surveil wire transfers all 
over the globe.

QUINN: Let me ask you this. How do you sucker the rest of the 
banking community around the globe into buying the software 
that you are selling? 

NORMAN: First of all you sell to front companies like this 
company Systematics in Arkansas, now called Alltel Information 
Services. They had another company called Boston Systematics,
an affiliate based in Israel mainly. There is Robert Maxwell, the 
UK publisher, who is fronting this stuff. There are a whole bunch 
of people fronting this.
 
QUINN: Wait a minute, Robert Maxwell -- isn't he dead? 

NORMAN: Yeah, he is now. 

QUINN: Didn't he have an unfortunate accident? 

NORMAN: Fell off his yacht in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. 

QUINN: Why, isn't that amazing! 

NORMAN: The tinkering of it was mainly putting back doors, just a 
few lines of code, that would allow somebody to dial into a 
computer without leaving any footprints, any audit trail that 
you were in there. Then you could go around and look around in 
files or you could collect information from a system without the
user even knowing it 

QUINN: Now this software, which was originally called Promis, 
was stolen from a company called Inslaw by the Justice 
Department. It ended up somewhere, probably at E-Systems
or somewhere, and it was converted into banking software. It 
Started out as software designed to track prosecutorial cases
around the country. My question is -- why didn't Ed Meese just 
pay the damn bill, and none of this would ever have come to 
light! Danny Casolaro was chasing the stolen software when he 
stumbled on what it was being used for. 

NORMAN: Well, the trouble with it was that they bought it for use 
in the Justice Department, but they were going to use it all over 
the place. If they were paying royalties on it, Inslaw would know 
just how extensive the use was of the software, and they didn't 
want people to know how extensively it was going to be used. 

QUINN: I see... 

NORMAN: Plus, a lot of the profits from the resale of this went 
back into private profits. It was customized and resold to the 
intelligence community. It became sort of a basic platform 
database tracking system for most of our intelligence agencies 
and many of those abroad. The idea was "Well, we can all talk to 
each other now." In fact what it has allowed us to do is 
basically rifle through other people's data files abroad too, 
because the stuff was apparently being sold to foreign 
intelligence agencies and it was also bugged. We have other ways 
of basically surveilling and downloading foreign electronic 
databases. The whole computer world is much more porous and 
transparent than anybody wants you to believe. 

QUINN: There is a bank here that I know that uses this software 
right here in this town, and I'm sure that there is probably more 
than one. Everybody's got it.

NORMAN: In some form or another. It goes under different names 
now. It's been modified many times. I think when Inslaw had it, 
it was a half million lines of code. I'm told now it's a couple 
of million lines anyway. It's gone through many, many 
modifications over the years. 

QUINN: This company, Systematics, which is I believe still 8% 
owned by Jackson Stevens at Stevens Inc., who, by the way, is one 
of the backers of Bob Dole -- how troubling is that? 

NORMAN: He is the co-chairman of Dole's finance committee. 

QUINN: That's right! Bob's in town -- Hi Bob -- You'd better 
explain this. You'd better explain Mena, too, Bob, or it's going 
to follow you to the White House. Systematics, I understand, had 
an attorney who was kind of off the record doing work for them, 
named Vince Foster. Is that true? 

NORMAN: Yep, that's true. We've heard that from many, many 
sources now. In fact, Jim Leach's committee has established that 
pretty well with some of the investigation that they have done. 
Foster was a trusted deal guy for Stevens at the law firm. 
Although Foster never shows up officially as an attorney of record 
for Systematics, he was definitely in the loop, basically 
smoothing out things between Systematics and the NSA, which was 
the main government agency that was contracting for a lot of this 
stuff. 

QUINN: So this is how Foster got involved in intelligence, right. 

NORMAN: Yes, because there is heavy duty code and computer 
technology stuff involved here. Apparently, some time in the 
early 80s he developed this relationship with the State of 
Israel. In fact, some of the same handlers I am told were 
involved in the Jonathan Pollard case. They basically nurtured 
him and groomed him for many years and then bingo, they hit the 
jackpot -- he ended up in the White House. Apparently he 
convinced Hillary to help him out on some stuff. 

QUINN: So... what is Foster involved in? It's the mid 80s... 

NORMAN: Mid 80s. Foster is at the Rose Law Firm. Think of him as 
a high-level marketing guy between Systematics and the NSA. 
NSA -- they have all these spooky contracts that they are trying 
to find contractors for. Foster would have been sort of a 
go-between there. Plus Hillary was actually an attorney of record 
for Systematics back in 1978 when Stevens tried to take over the 
Financial General Bank shares in Washington. Those bank holding
companies later became First American - Clark Clifford, Robert 
Altman, all that crowd. 

QUINN: Yeah, the BCCI thing. 

NORMAN: Stevens was fronting for the BCCI crowd and trying to 
take over this Washington Bank Holding Co. The SEC blocked him at 
the time, partly because one of the things he was insisting on 
was that this company Systematics, which at that time was a tiny 
little thing in Arkansas, he was insisting that they be brought 
in to do all of the data processing for this multistate bank 
holding company in Washington. Hillary represented Systematics
in that. Now the thing about Systematics at the time -- it was 
before they even got involved with the bank spying stuff. Abroad 
for many years, they had been what amounted to a laundromat for 
covert funds for the CIA and the intelligence community, quite 
legally, probably. It was done for the national interest. 
Somebody had to move this money around and Systematics was in a 
perfect place to do it because they owned the computers and a 
whole bunch of small banks. They could move this money around 
electronically without the bankers even knowing about it 
necessarily, and it wouldn't go through the normal clearing 
houses. The regulators wouldn't see it. It would just crop up 
wherever the CIA needed it in whatever bogus front company 
account, and it was all just bits and bytes; it was a cyberbank 
-- it still is. 

QUINN: I'm here with Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes 
Magazine. You know, it's interesting, here is a guy who was with 
Forbes Magazine, a respected senior editor who figured probably 
this would be his life's work. All of a sudden, he finds himself 
a defrocked commando journalist working for Media Bypass Magazine 
out of what? Evanston, Illinois, or somewhere in Indiana? 

NORMAN: Indiana. 

QUINN: Yeah, that's right. Now, I've got a question. Before we get 
into Vince Foster in the mid 80s and Hillary Clinton's role in 
this, how did you get onto this whole scandal? Where did you walk 
through the door on this? 

NORMAN: I came in the back door completely. Look, I had no ax to 
grind here against Bill Clinton or the Administration. I hated 
covering politics. I thought it was all baloney. I'm just a 
business writer, and I never wanted to get enmeshed in this whole 
Whitewater/Vince Foster thing, but it started -- for a couple of 
years I had been following this oil company bankruptcy up in 
Stamford, Connecticut, because I had covered oil. This thing 
never made sense to me. There is no reason why this company went 
bust and, in fact, when I actually got into it and started redoing 
the oil trading transactions, the reason they lost money: they 
weren't losing it. They were hiding it. They were parking it off 
shore with another company that was financing arms sales to Iraq, 
cluster bombs and stuff like that all through the 80s. And, this 
Chilean arms dealer, Cardone, who was providing weapons, was also, 
it turns out, brokering some of the sales of this stolen software. 
Okay, that gets me into the software story. 

QUINN: So that gets you onto the Promis software, and you and 
Danny Casolaro are now on the same road. 

NORMAN: Right, and then in the process of that, I started talking 
to a whole bunch of rather spooky, strange intelligence community 
characters, and I was sitting at a guy's living room down in 
Kentucky one day. He was sitting there in the middle of the night 
blowing smoke rings, and he said, "Yo, by the way, Vince Foster, 
he was under investigation." I said, "Under investigation, for 
what?" And, he said, "Well, it's spelled 'Espionage.'" BOINK!!... 
and that's how I got on this whole Vince Foster thing. 

QUINN: So that's how it happened? 

NORMAN: Yeah. 

QUINN: Okay, now here it is, the mid 80s. Vince Foster is working 
for Systematics, and he is coming into contact with the 
intelligence community. What is, how did Hillary Clinton and the 
Israeli Mossad and all of this come together and what happened? 

NORMAN: Well, I think that they had been... look the Israelis were 
key partners with us in this bank spying effort. This is a joint 
allied government effort, and the Israelis were one of the key 
front people in this, in selling and supporting this software all 
over the world, so that people weren't thinking they were getting 
the software directly from the U.S. You know, there was an 
Israeli front company used to sell this stuff to foreign banks. 

QUINN: Well, they sold it to the Moscow bank. I know that. 

NORMAN: Well, Systematics did, yeah, and Systematics got involved 
in supporting this stuff all over the world, a little company in 
Arkansas... Go figure. Come on. 

QUINN: Yeah, really. 

NORMAN: I mean, main software people, they operate in New York 
and places like that and not out of Podunk, Arkansas. So, at any 
rate, the Israelis had ties into this whole thing all along, and, 
you know, they are our friends. We do give them a lot of stuff 
and share a lot of stuff. 

QUINN: Well, the whole idea was to track terrorist money, and the 
Israelis have a great interest in that, and rightly so. There is 
no problem here. 

NORMAN: The name of this problem was "follow the money for 
terrorist reasons," but once you set that up, you can do all 
kinds of stuff with it. I mean, we were spying on everybody's 
money. I think that's probably how we helped bust the Soviet 
Union. We found out just how deep their pockets were, where their 
money was, who we could bribe. You know, acting as a financial 
destruction of their society more than anything. 

QUINN: So, how does Foster get involved in espionage? 

NORMAN: Well, I think it was money. Money, money, money. And, 
especially you know with this whole political thing, it takes so 
much money to run for office. I mean, my theory is that the 
actual spending is probably twice of what anybody declares when 
you add up all of the soft dollars and everything. I think there
is a tremendous need for money there, and they just weren't real 
cautious about where it was coming from. I think this thing about 
selling state secrets to the Israeli's and other countries was 
just a business. It was just for money. I don't think there was 
any ideology involved here at all, and it was one of many 
businesses. There is also insider trading going on here. There 
was the kickback on drugs and arms stuff and so the money has to 
go... you have to hide it some way, so it goes into Swiss bank 
accounts. And Foster would have known that, yeah, we're tracking 
this money off shore, but there is such a blizzard of information 
that unless somebody knows exactly what they are looking for they
would never find anything. They thought they could cover this up 
pretty well so Foster had... actually he had several accounts, and 
there was one in particular in this bank, bank at Villa Switsaria 
Italiano in Chaso on the Italian border. It is a little kind of a 
Mafia kind of community there reputed, and so he was taking the 
money in there for the payments from the Swiss. He was going to 
Geneva every six or eight months, and his curious one-day trips --
I don't think it was for sightseeing. 

QUINN: No. I'm sure he wasn't doing any real estate work for 
Arkansas. 

NORMAN: No. The whole thing about money laundering is... you know 
the money would go into a Swiss bank. Somebody would have to go 
physically and take it out and take it to a friendly bonded dealer 
or something like that, buy bearer bonds or other kinds of bonds 
or something that you could pledge as collateral for loans back 
in the states and turn it back into cash again legitimately, and 
so that is how money laundering works. Vince, in effect, was a 
bag man here because when they go to the White House all of a 
sudden they hit the jackpot. There was so much more goodies there, 
and, in fact, Deborah Goram, Foster's executive assistant, 
testified under oath that Foster had given her two, inch-thick 
ring binders from the National Security Agency to put in Bernie 
Nussbaum's safe in the White House. What were these binders? Well, 
I have talked to brokering experts on this stuff, and they say, 
"Look, when you are talking NSA binders in the White House, you 
are talking mainly one thing, and these are the codes and 
protocols by which the President authenticates himself when he 
has to call up the Pentagon to say 'let's go nuke somebody'." Now, 
what was Foster doing with these things? He had no business with 
them. He would have had no access to them. It would have to come 
from somebody with access to the Oval Office or the Presidential 
living quarters. 

QUINN: And, who would that be? 

NORMAN: Well, I think we know who we are talking about here. 

QUINN: We're talking about Hillary Clinton, aren't we? 

NORMAN: That's right. She has been under investigation in this 
whole thing, too, but I think that they had a strong case against 
Vince and not such a strong case against Hillary. But, you see 
what happened was, and this is another whole part of the story as 
to how they got onto Foster. Basically, there was a team of
computer hackers and computer intelligence guys in the CIA who 
were going through most databases. They found names there that 
they identified as being Foster and Hillary. They put them under 
surveillance actually before they went to the White House. I think 
it was between the election and the time that they went to the 
White House, and that's when the alarm bells went off. They had 
been surveilling these accounts for a while, and when Foster on 
July 1, 1993, bought a ticket to Geneva, a round-trip one-day 
ticket to Geneva, these guys said, "Oops, he's going to take the 
money. We're going to beat him to it." And, they went in. They 
hacked their way into the bank and obtained the necessary
authorization codes on this coded account for which no signature 
is required to withdraw money, by the way. 

QUINN: Right. 

NORMAN: They were able to effect their own technically legitimate 
wire transfer of this money back to the U.S. Treasury, where it 
sits in a holding account escrowed for use by the CIA. 

QUINN: So, the CIA empties Vince Foster's Swiss bank account of 
its ill-gotten money. 

NORMAN: Yeah, actually it wasn't the CIA. It was this sort of 
renegade vigilante group of guys they called the Fifth Column 
that has been out doing this stuff. They don't take any of the 
money for themselves. The money goes to the... 

QUINN: They just do it for fun? 

NORMAN: The CIA only gets the money. It is escrowed for use by 
the CIA but only when the CIA gets rid of a bunch of its bad 
apples there who've got dirty hands from drug kickbacks, arms. 

QUINN: Let's pick this story up. There was a meeting just before 
Vince Foster died on the eastern shore of Maryland in which 
Webster Hubbell, Vince Foster, and some others were present. 
Okay, this was just before Foster died. Pick up the story here. 

NORMAN: All right. Well, we mentioned July 1, 1993. Foster buys 
this round-trip ticket to Switzerland. They raid his account. 
They take out $2.73 million. Foster apparently calls up the bank 
to let them know he was coming. They say, "Oh, Vince don't you 
know you took the money out already?" Boing... that's when he
found out he was under investigation. That's when he got so 
mysteriously depressed. It had nothing to do with editorials in 
the Wall Street Journal. He had his bank account raided big time, 
and he knew he was under surveillance, or he knew he was under 
investigation. And, that started this curious chain of events. 
Webster Hubbell testified that not so much Vince was depressed, 
but he was worried. He was afraid to use the White House 
telephones. The guy had heart palpitations. He couldn't sleep at 
night. His doctor gave him a prescription for sleeping pills. His 
sister tried to get him to talk to some psychiatrist. He never 
got in touch with them. Instead, he hired a high-powered lawyer 
in Washington, Jim Hamilton, this big deal white-collar crime 
fix-it guy who handles people who get hauled up for Congressional 
hearings. And, then there is this curious meeting the weekend 
before Foster died. He and his wife, Lisa, go down to the eastern 
shore of Maryland for a getaway weekend, and then, by coincidence, 
they meet Hubbell and his wife down there. Hubbell, also from the 
Rose Law Firm, at the time the country's de-facto top law 
enforcement law officer because Janet Reno in effect was taking 
her orders from Hubbell. They go over to the estate of Michael 
Cardoza, who is the son-in-law of Nathan Landau, a big deal 
Democratic fund-raiser, and Cardoza is also the head of Clinton's 
legal defense fund. Supposedly, this was all poolside chit chat.
Baloney, it was damage control. They were trying to figure out 
how to contain this scandal from spreading to other people in the 
White House, and they were trying to lean on Vince to get him to, 
you know, cop a plea, go quietly, or shut up and don't talk about 
it. And, in fact, what my sources have told me is that there was 
actually a huge payment made to an account held by Lisa Foster, 
with more than $286,000, on the Friday before that meeting. 

QUINN: Wait a minute, on the Friday before that meeting, Lisa 
Foster's bank account gets a deposit of $286 million? 

NORMAN: $286,000, yeah. 

QUINN: I'm sorry, yeah, $286,000. Okay, so does she take it out? 

NORMAN: Well, I don't know what ever happened to that money. It 
is hard to tell where it came from even. It is all very 
mysterious to me, but it sure smells like hush money to me. It's 
like, "Look Vince, don't worry, we'll take care of your money." 

QUINN: You don't know if she wrote a check on it?

NORMAN: Well, I'm told that it came through the hands somehow of 
Sheila Anthony, who was Foster's sister, and at the time she was 
a "congressional liaison" person at the Justice Department, 
whatever a congressional liaison is. 

QUINN: So she takes the money to Foster, and Foster turns it down? 

NORMAN: Well, no... I think he probably accepted it, or it went 
there. But, apparently, he was having second thoughts, I think. 
You know, on the Monday after they came back from this meeting, 
the records showed, the public records showed, that he has a 
parade of people coming by his office in the White House saying, 
"Hey, how'd your weekend go, Vince? You cool with this? I mean, 
you on board with all of this? Everything okay?" you know. Then,... 

QUINN: A lot of very nervous people in the White House. 

NORMAN: That's right. Then, the day he died he had like a two-hour 
meeting with another person from the Arkansas contingent there. I 
think the problem was that they were afraid that Vince was going 
to talk or that he was going to crack under questioning, and 
here's a guy who was now, at this point, under intense 
surveillance. I mean, he had not only CIA counter intelligence 
people, but you had NSA. You had FBI surveilling him. There was a 
four-person IRS team we know was assigned to tail this guy, 
probably in connection with the money laundering aspect of the 
Swiss bank account. 

QUINN: God, this thing's got everything but floats in the... I 
mean all they need is Goofy, a big balloon with ropes on it 
following this guy around. 

NORMAN: You almost did. I mean, you had the Secret Service with 
a bomb-sniffing dog squad out there checking his car in the 
parking lot. The video tapes of that, gone. The video tapes of the 
room where they are stored, gone. I mean, this whole thing is 
massively covered up, and I guess it is for national security
reasons. 

QUINN: Well now, I understand that Foster had a meeting scheduled 
with Bill Clinton. I believe it was on a Wednesday. 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: And, it was the Tuesday he was killed. 

NORMAN: Right. Exactly. The question is well, gee, was he going 
to drop something in the President's lap and blow the plausible 
deniability that he might have on this stuff. 

QUINN: Well, this Foster suicide thing is so sloppy. It leads me 
to believe that on Tuesday they thought he would take the money 
and shut up, and he didn't take it so they had to do something 
real quick. 

NORMAN: Well, that could be it or that even if he wanted to shut 
up maybe they were afraid he would crack under interrogation or 
something. You know, it is just somebody wanted him real dead, 
and there is a bunch of people who had ample reason for it. This 
was not suicide. It was not over depression. This was a political 
assassination carried out on U.S. soil by a foreign government. 
The Israelis were involved in this. There was apparently a three-
person Mossad-contracted team that went into the apartment that 
Foster had gone to that afternoon where he was apparently lured 
by a female person from the White House staff who I think still 
works in the White House. 

QUINN: Now, who would that be? 

NORMAN: Well, I... 

QUINN: Because, he had sex with her? 

NORMAN: That's the impression, yeah. 

QUINN: I mean, there was semen on his shorts. There was brownish-
blonde hair on his clothing and rug fibers all over him which may 
or may not have had to do with having sex on the floor. It might 
have been... 

NORMAN: No, I think that was because he was rolled up in a rug 
afterwards and taken over to Fort Marcy Park. Now, the question 
is, were elements of our intelligence community involved in 
helping to dispose of the body and cover it up some way? 

QUINN: Who is the woman in the White House? 

NORMAN: I can't say. 

QUINN: Patsy Thomason? 

NORMAN: No. I don't want to say. I suspect... 

QUINN: Dee Dee. Well, she's not there anymore. 

NORMAN: That name is known. I mean, she has been identified on 
these tapes apparently, but.... 

QUINN: I think Dee Dee and Bill are doing it, but that's just me. 
Anyway, let's get back to the story here. Okay, so I understand 
at least you are claiming that there is a videotape of Foster's 
murder? 

NORMAN: Well, of the people entering and leaving this apartment a 
few blocks from the White House where it apparently occurred. 

QUINN: Has anybody located this apartment? Do you know where it 
is? 

NORMAN: I don't know exactly where it is myself. I am told it is 
actually within a few blocks of the White House. 

QUINN: Okay, so they lure him here, and they pop him, and there 
is a videotape of it or there is a videotape of the people going 
in and out. Then, they go to Fort Marcy Park, and they dump him. 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: Okay, and we've got a witness now that says they saw the 
two guys that fit the same description that Patrick Knowlton, the 
other witness, to Foster's car. He describes the one guy that 
threatens him. One of those people is one of the two that 
supposedly was walking Foster, who looked drunk to this guy, 
into the park, but he says that they laid him out. 

NORMAN: Yeah. I don't know too much about all that stuff, but 
what I know is this, that Paul Rodriguez is the Editor of Insight 
Magazine, that came up with this Mr. X source. When Forbes decided 
not to run the story for reasons that were kind of mysterious to 
me at the time, and while I was still there, they gave me 
permission to publish it elsewhere. And, as I approached Insight, 
because they are kind of a gutsy magazine, David Rodriguez made a 
whole bunch of calls around Washington trying to corroborate this 
stuff, and I think he was making some headway. Then, he gets this 
visit in person from some military intelligence guy from the 
Pentagon who comes to him and says, "Paul, lay off this story. 
You don't know what you're dealing with here." 

QUINN: No. I think we do know what we are dealing with here. 
We're dealing with the biggest scandal since maybe... 

NORMAN: And, you've got Israeli relations at stake here. You know, 
the intelligence community has a lot of joint ventures with the 
Israelis. They don't want to "queer" those things. I mean, we do 
business with those people a lot, and you know a lot of it is 
probably quite necessary, but you know there is a scandal here 
that dwarfs the Jonathan Pollard case by orders of magnitude 
really. 

QUINN: I want to discuss a couple of things with you. First of 
all, now it would appear that a bunch of Republicans picking 
Kenneth Starr to put him in charge of this investigation of 
Vince Foster and the Whitewater problem in Washington, D.C. On 
the surface, it looked like they were going for the jugular, but 
see, Mr. Starr has some background that leads back to the Inslaw 
case we discussed earlier in the show about the Promis software 
and stuff. He excused himself from that litigation. 

NORMAN: And, the reason was because he was the inside counsel for 
William French Smith at the Justice Department in 1982 at the 
time that the Inslaw software was expropriated by the government... 

QUINN: Okay. So he really is not in the position to be the pit 
bull to expose this. He is in a better position to get Clinton on 
whatever Republicans need to get him on and make sure that 
Republicans don't get burned here.
 
NORMAN: I think that's it. Yeah. 

QUINN: Okay, now. Given that that's the case and given that the 
Washington inside-the-beltway crowd on both sides of the aisle 
are trying to make sure that the fix is in on this, how do you 
think or what leads you to believe that this is going to come out, 
and through what channels? 

NORMAN: Well, again, it goes back to resources of mine. 
Basically, there are a few good guys in the intelligence 
community, particularly this handful of people in the so-called
Fifth Column, who are so incensed about this bipartisan coverup, 
the government's inability and unwillingness to deal with the high
level corruption here, they've just decided to take things into 
their own hands. They never had government authorization to go 
raid the foreign bank accounts, but.... 

QUINN: How many accounts are there? How many people in the 
government right now have Swiss bank accounts filled with money 
from BCCI, drug laundering, defense kickbacks, arms trades, I 
mean all of this nonsense? 

NORMAN: Not as many as two years ago. These guys have been out 
raiding these accounts. They've pulled back $2.5 billion, more 
than $2.5 billion with a "B" dollars from 300, 400, 500 of these 
accounts. There is probably 3,000 coded Swiss and other foreign 
bank accounts that they have been rifling through the computers on. 

QUINN: How can there be this many of them and it doesn't come out? 

NORMAN: It is because it is endemic corruption. The government is 
corrupt. Why should we give the President of South Korea $600 
million? ... country more powerful, more worth corrupting, more 
venal and with weaker controls for policing this stuff. 

QUINN: Well, because we don't believe it can happen here. 

NORMAN: That's right. We're Americans. Well, this is greed and 
money. But, there is.... 

QUINN: Well, it's murder too. 

NORMAN: That's right, and there have been hundreds of these 
accounts already raided, and nobody, NOBODY has been able to stand 
up and say, "I was robbed." Why? Because, the money came from 
exactly what you said -- kickbacks on drugs, kickbacks on arms, 
insider trading, and they never paid any taxes on this stuff. 
They've never disclosed it, and the minimum sentence for willful 
tax evasion is ten years, that's the minimum. So, what you have 
going on right now in Congress is basically, there is an Angel of 
Death. Actually, there are two I'm told. There is one on the 
Democratic side and one on the Republican side. 

QUINN: Now, do they make their rounds together? 

NORMAN: No. It's separately. What I'm told is that the people in 
Congress with these Swiss bank accounts, who have had these 
accounts, if they haven't already left, if they haven't had the 
good sense to already get their butts out of there, they have been 
delivered, hand delivered a brown paper envelope with transaction 
records of their Swiss bank accounts, and within a day or so they 
get a visit from this Angel of Death who says it's time for you 
to go, time to do some career planning, you're out of here, we 
don't want you in the government when the stuff hits the fan here, 
as it's gonna do in the spring apparently. The records are going 
to start coming out. It's going to be obvious. These vigilantes 
are just going to take this situation into their own hands and 
release this stuff, I'm convinced. 

QUINN: These people are real patriots. They could end up dead 
doing this. 

NORMAN: Some of them may already have. I think... but they've 
planned this quite well. I think they've got it down now. They 
know that if anything happens to them, that the stuff would just 
come out in a gush, so it would be counterproductive for.... 

QUINN: Yeah, but I mean is it going to come out in the 
mainstream media. You've got the Mena story being spiked a year 
ago by Katherine Graham at the Washington Post, and I've uncov... 
you, what I stumbled on a memo from Paul Keiser yesterday from the 
editor at the Washington Post who writes me in this memo a flat 
out blatant lie. He says that the authors of the Mena story, that 
was supposed to run January 26, 1995, in the Washington Post 
Outlook Section, had withdrawn the article before the Washington 
Post had decided to run it, and that's just a flat out lie. 

NORMAN: Well, it's technically probably true. But, what they've 
done, they've left those people dangling by a thread for like 6-8 
months. I don't blame them for taking the story elsewhere as the.... 

QUINN: Yeah, but no, but Jim they didn't. The type galleys had 
been laid, and the artwork had been done. It was supposed... they 
didn't pull it until the Thursday before the Sunday it was 
supposed to run. 

NORMAN: Right. Well, technically the Post can say, "Oh, we never 
quieted you..." That's what they told me at Forbes, too, about my 
story. Finally, I never got a good reason why my story didn't run 
at Forbes. Ultimately, they said, "Oh, we didn't trust your 
sources." But, actually what my immediate supervisor said, "We 
can't say this about Systematics," which was a big advertiser at 
Forbes, and we can't say this about the Israelis. 

QUINN: Yeah, right. 

NORMAN: That's why didn't run in Forbes. 

QUINN: Well, there's actually no proof that Systematics has 
deliberately delivered stolen software. I mean, they may not even 
know that the software was stolen, and it may be another version 
of it. 

NORMAN: Systematics is under heavy duty investigation, though, 
right now for money laundering, because once you set up a system 
for laundering covert funds for the government, who knows what 
else you can piggyback on top of that. The suspicion is that this 
was the quid pro quo here in return for laundering, supposedly, 
call it legitimate funds that the intelligence community can 
piggyback other stuff to. 

QUINN: Let's get back to the Angel of Death here and the 
resignations in Congress, which have been pretty much 
attributed by guys like Rush Limbaugh to the fact that Democrats 
just don't like being in the minority anymore, and they don't 
have the guts or stamina to stick it out the way the Republicans 
did for 40 years. And, some of that may be true, but how many of 
these people who have said that they are pulling their hats out 
of the ring... And, now we have two Republicans... How many of 
these people have been visited by this so-called Angel of Death? 
All of them? 

NORMAN: Well, the figures I've heard is that I think there's like 
25 or 26 so far since the last election who have decided they are 
not going to run again or had actually resigned and out of there, 
like Norman Minetta from Los Angeles[sic]. Of those, I'm told 
about 21 or 22 so far can be directly attributed to Swiss bank 
account problems. There is probably another dozen or so that 
are going to go that way. Again, there is an argument that, "Oh, 
we just can't stand the nasty politics in Washington anymore." 
Come on, give me a break. 

QUINN: Well, I like Patsy Schroeder. She wanted us to believe 
that now that the Democratic party is in such good shape she can 
leave it and it doesn't... did you see that? 

NORMAN: No.... 

QUINN: That was great. Oh yeah, now that.... 

NORMAN: Patsy Schroeder, somebody noted on the Internet that at 
the news conference where she was announcing she wasn't going to 
run, there had already been re-elect Schroeder bumper stickers 
printed up. I mean, she... take this guy Ron Coleman from Texas, 
a Congressman down there. He made his announcement at his 
supposed re-election campaign kickoff party. 

QUINN: You're kidding? This is right out of a... this is a movie. 

NORMAN: That's right. Listen, these people have been confronted. 
They've been given 24 hours basically to clean out their desks. 
That's what it amounts to. 

QUINN: So, they're gonna try and get all these people out who 
have Swiss bank accounts before it hits the fan. Now, when do you 
suppose that this is going to happen? Can you give us a timetable? 

NORMAN: Well, that's happening in tiers. I mean, we've already 
seen a bunch of departures. I think that the early spring is the 
timetable. You know, Wall Street is going to get hit with this 
stuff too. Now, every year in the spring, soon after the first of 
the year, after these guys collect their year-end bonuses, you have 
a big exodus. But, I'm told Wall Street is going to get hit with 
this big time this year because those guys were in it too. You 
gotta remember, there was so much money sloshing around here... 

QUINN: Yeah, really. 

NORMAN: ... from arms deals. You could not launder all of that 
money without the knowing, willing cooperation and participation 
of major banks, major brokerage houses, and... 

QUINN: Goldman Sachs possibly? 

NORMAN: Oh yeah. Look, Goldman... 

QUINN: I always found it strange that Robert Rubin showed up when 
he did. 

NORMAN: This Goldman, they were the chief investment bankers to 
Robert Maxwell in the U.K., helped Maxwell loot a half a billion 
dollars out of his pension funds, and it now costs a huge amount 
of money for a settlement there. 

QUINN: It sounds like somebody's calling you. 

NORMAN: They still have the bond for ADFA, the Arkansas Development... 

QUINN: Whoa, hold on a second. What's that? 

NORMAN: That's another one of these... 

QUINN: Well no, I know what it is. You're telling me that Goldman 
Sachs was holding the bonds for the Arkansas Development? 

NORMAN: No, they were the underwriter on a bunch of these $8 
billion or so of bonds that ADFA marketed to who knows whom. 

QUINN: Oh man. You know, I have transactions on my desk at home, 
$80 million of money transfers to the Fuji Bank in the Cayman 
Islands from ADFA, the Arkansas Development Financial Authority, 
who I believe never had more than $8 million to begin with. I 
mean, where did they get $80 million, and what's it going to the 
Fuji Bank for? The interest rate? Come on, the Switzerland of the 
Caribbean. Jim, I gotta let you go. I gotta wrap this up here, 
but I want to thank you for joining us this morning. 

NORMAN: It's a pleasure. I'll keep you posted as more develops. 
There's going to be more coming down the pike here soon. 

QUINN: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm gonna call you later on 
today. I'll give you my home number. Let's stay in touch because 
if what you say is true and if there are truly some patriots in 
the intelligence community who are finally going to blow the 
whistle on this. By the way, all of these resignations and the 
Angel of Death and all of this, I think is evidence that these 
people know that this is inevitable that this is going to come 
out. 

NORMAN: It's like AIDS. I think there are a bunch of people back 
before the last election who realized they, in fact, have slept 
with the wrong woman or person, and they did not run again, but 
there has been denial, denial, denial by a bunch of these people. 
Finally, I think it's like the Angel of Death is finally coming
around saying, "You gotta go. Bye. You're outta here." 

*************************** CREDITS******************************

If you are a talk show host and want to contact either one of 
these guys for an interview you can reach James Norman at MEDIA 
BYPASS MAGAZINE, 1-800-4-BYPASS 

Jim Quinn can be contacted at WRRK, 7 Parkway Center, Suite 780, 
Pittsburgh, PA 15220, Fax Number 412-928-9290, Internet address 
is quinn@sgi.net homepage at http://www.warroom.com or Compuserve
72662,3507.


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