From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 04:04:47 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: more RANTING about NSA-friendly cpunks
In-Reply-To: <199601282130.NAA29294@netcom6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199601290535.VAA08104@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com     

>>Zimmermann supports my contention, as I wrote in the post. NOTHING
>>happened to him. it is conceivable this same result could have
>>been arrived at (government drops investigation) if he never even 
>>hired a lawyer.
>>
>>Zimmermann is a perfect example of what may be counterproductive
>>hysteria on *our* side, toward advancing crypto. if Zimmermann
>>cannot be prosecuted, and is not prosecuted, where are the ITAR "teeth"???
>
>I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that the proscuters gave up because they
>could not build a trail of evidence between Zimmermann and the actual
>export.  After all, Zimmermann only wrote PGP.  He didn't post it on the
>net.

so what?!?!? what is your point?!?!?!

I am well aware of the Zimmermann
background!!! why do you think I used it as an example!!

the "Feds" are AWARE that KELLY GOEN was the one who distributed it.
did they prosecute him either? NO!!! did they have evidence that Goen
was the one that knowingly "exported" the code? PROBABLY!!! WHAT DOES
THIS TELL YOU?!?!?!

my point is that, what is anyone's evidence that what happened to 
Zimmermann (i.e. NOTHING WHATSOEVER other than an investigation that
ended with NOTHING) would not happen to whoever tried to "export"
whatever algorithms they pleased???

if people are going to pretend that the ITAR crypto sections have
TEETH, then please
give a disclaimer that YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. I have no problem with
people getting "paler shades of white" from all their imagined bogeymen.
I do have a problem with them complaining, then, about a reality
that came about from their own fears, i.e. was constructed BY THEM,
not by their opposition (i.e. the NSA).

Zimmermann SHOWS that any claim that the ITAR has "teeth" APPEARS TO
BE GROUNDLESS. what happened to Zimmermann? NOTHING. I repeat: he
could conceivably have NOT EVEN HIRED A LAWYER to achieve the current
situation, which was that he was NOT EVEN PROSECUTED, let alone
CONVICTED.

you can argue all you want about HYPOTHETICAL situations, but the
REALITY is that nobody has ever gotten any nastiness from any
ITAR-crypto prosecution. 

why is this point so hard to grasp???  perhaps whoever points out
various fears are groundless is barking up the wrong tree, if the
fearer is not interested in alternative scenarios or incapable of
conceiving of them.

if cpunks want excuses to cower in terror of the ITAR (such as e.g.
TCM seems to advocate), you will find endless  justification from
your rampant fantasies.  in my view, as I wrote, however, they are
about as substantial as fears of COOTIE or THE BOGEYMAN based on
actual reality.


P.S. it is well known that KELLY GOEN distributed the code-- you can
even ask Sternlout. I am not revealing any secret there.