From: "Michael C. Peponis" <mianigand@unique.outlook.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What to do about Germany
Message-ID: <199601031913.NAA11851@unique.outlook.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On  Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:52:34 +0100 (MET) Cees de Groot wrote

>> What the German goverement threatned to do was inexcusable, but 
>> something can be done about it.

>Sorry, but the "German government" did not threaten to do anything at 
>all. A (conservative-ish) prosecutor started an _investigation_, which
>in his eyes was nothing more than executing the law (and sorry, 
>that's what the guy is paid for).

So what does the above paragraph mean, it was not the goverment that 
threated, it was a procecutor who was acting on behalf of the 
govement to enforcese the laws of that body which is what he is paid 
to do.  

Gee, that's what I said, only alot more complicated and detailed.  In 
the end, the party at fault is the some division of the German 
goverment, the procecutor is not an individual person acting on 
his/her own behalf.

>If the German government did something wrong, it was accepting a law
>for the protection of minors (Jugendschutzgesetz), which says that
>minors should not be allowed to have access to booze, dope and 
porno.

But that's a GERMAN law, the Internet is an INTERNATIONAL community.  
If we have to respect the laws of Germany, and their customs and 
archaic belief systems, them we have to give the same consideration 
to anyother countries backwords, morality-based, mentality.  There 
are hundreds of countries on the planet, most of them backwards.  
Respect everybodys sence of decency and right and wrong and nobody 
will be able to transmit anything the least be vulgar becasue it 
would violate some countries law some where on the planet.

>Please tell me such laws do not exist in your country...
They do exist, but I have been breaking them since 13, I don't care 
to be protected by some "moral" and "ethical" person, I can decide 
for myself what I can and can not do.

>If anything, this whole bussiness will be one step in the correct
>direction:
>- Either some modus operandum is found which makes it clear for 
>everybody
 > how to offer pornographic material and comply with the law at the
>  same time (cf. the First Virtual account ID's you have to enter at
>  all those sites pointing to www.infohaus.com - in the US, this 
>modus
>  operandum seems to be ``proof of having a credit card'');

That's just brilliant exhange one evil for another.  Instead of 
censorship, we take away people's rights to autonymity and privacy.
Sorry, not an option.

> Or the German Government learns about the lack of frontiers on the 
>Net, and gives up (which is highly improbable).

Or they can be given consequences for their actions.  Let it be known 
that people will not tolerate them enforcing their laws on everybody. 
 The weaker any goverment, the more ineffective it is in imposing 
it's will, the better off individuals are.


>considering that German prosecutors don't have the option of not
>prosecuting when they hear about a felony, like for example Dutch
>prosecutors.
No the prosecutor does not have a choice, that's why you attact the 
people that make the laws, or the governing body as a whole.  They 
try to impose there will on me, I will unlease my dirty tricks on 
them.  Fair is fair.

I have the ablity to impose my will on ohters, I have done so when 
certin persons have gotten on my nerves by posting things to 
newsgroups that were blatently off topic and they had been told and 
warned about it on serveral occasions.  But when you go to a sexualy 
explicit newsgroup, what do you think you will find, what is the 
purpose of such a group?  Protection of children is a parents 
responsiblity, if they can't handle that responsiblity, that is thier 
problem, not mine.


 Given my experiencewith the German government,
>however, it will take some time for them >to realize that they need
>a set of rules in this area.
Again, that is Germany's problem, not mine, make it an issue and 
suffer the consequences.

-- 
>OpenLink Software
Tell Kinsley I said hello
Regards,
Michael Peponis
PGP Key Avalible form MIT Key Server