From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Explosives, Criminality, and Preemptive Action
Message-ID: <ad67dae60e02100466b2@[205.199.118.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:06 AM 3/10/96, JonWienke@aol.com wrote:

>Who says they were going to blow anything up?  It is perfectly legit for
>farms to have large quantities of fertilizer around--they use it all the
>time.  Same with diesel fuel--what are they supposed to run the tractors and
>combines with?  Dog piss?  DUHHHH!  As far as having the instructions for
>mixing them to go boom, who the hell made that a crime?  You could bust most
>of the farmers in this country if you criminalize simultaneous posession of
>fertilizer and diesel fuel.  Did these people ever actually mix any of the
>fert. and fuel together?  Did they threaten to blow up anything?


My personal belief, from the news reports I've read (which may be
incorrect, of course), is that the ingredients were for use in a bomb,
whether or not they'd ever have gone through with it or not. The ancillary
items found (dozens of assault rifles, weapons manuals, patriot literature,
crank, meth, etc.), and the stockpiling of ANFO precursors, suggests an
Oklahoma City-type scenario.

This is what I think was objective reality.

Now, before certain readers go ballistic, start foaming about how TCMay and
his Tentacles of Medusa are pawns of Bill and Hillary, not to mention spawn
of Satan, etc., I'm not saying that what they did is criminal. Having the
potential to build a bomb or other deadly gadget is not the same as
actually building and using one. But should law enforcement have waited
until the bomb was actually built? Or actually loaded onto a truck? Or
actually placed in a target area? Or actually detonated? Mightn't it be
argued that until the bomb actually explodes, no crime has occurred?

(A fine line. A topic oft-debated in libertarian discussion talkathons: if
you see your neighbor preparing what you think will ultimately endanger you
or your neighbors, at what point are you justified in taking premptive
action? Certain extremists argue that at no point prior to your own death,
for example, has an "assault" occurred. Less extreme folks argue that the
assault happens when your neighbor begins to turn his gun in your
direction. And extremists at the other end believe that potentially
dangerous objects must be taken away from people long before they could
ever put them to use. Ergo, gun control, restrictions on bomb-making
info/anfo, etc. I take a stance closer to the first example, though I feel
no qualms about hitting first if I really think I'm about to be attacked.)

The argument that because farmers can use these products that the use must
have been an innocent use is a weak one. Anyone with any common sense can
see what they were up to. Who's kidding whom?

But, like I said, this may not be criminal. And courts routinely have to
deal with "conspiracy" cases to decide just how real the conspiracy was. (I
don't care for "conspiracy" charges...too much chance for abuse.)

Certainly the folks in Oregon will not face much prosecution, as near as I
can figure. The weapons charges may affect their parole (some of them are
ex-cons). The drug amounts are small. And the ANFO precursors....not clear
to me at all that having these is a violation of the laws about explosives,
but maybe it is.

>This whole situation is nothing more than jackbooted thugs getting a rush by
>stomping on people.  FTJBT

Overly simplistic. Don't misunderstand me: I share your anger at Waco, Ruby
Ridge, gun confiscation, tens of thousands of laws, high taxes, etc. But I
doubt the Oregon bust was a bunch of Waco Warriors assaulting the compound
with tanks and helicopters.

--Tim May, probably just added to Jim Bell's list of people he plans to
have killed

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