From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:51:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: coderpunks not elite
Message-ID: <ada588071e021004fa40@[205.199.118.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:14 PM 4/25/96, Hal wrote:
>From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
>> Well, I was not invited to join the elite and secret coderpunks list, but I
>> still have some thoughts on coding and, especially, on the opportunities
>> offered by Java.
>
>As far as I know, the coderpunks list is neither secret nor elite.  I
>joined it about a month ago, andd there wasn't any problem.  Just send
>mail to majordomo@toad.com saying "subscribe coderpunks".  It's just as
>easy as cypherpunks.

My reference was maybe a tad unfair. It was based on a reading of the hks
archives of the coderpunks archives covering the December 1995 foudning.
The hks archives no longer being available to me, I can't quote the
specific messages, but the secretive and elite nature was discussed in the
first dozen or so messages. Widespread knowledge of this list did not
become available until February.

My conclusion: keeping such a list secret and invitation-only for a couple
of months, until L. Todd Masco let the cat out of the bag by announcing
that hks was archiving it, is not a "cypherpunkish" thing to do. Having a
list oriented toward code is fine, but keeping it elite and secret is a
"cabal"-like thing to do. In my opinion, of course.

>I do share Tim's concern about the political views of coderpunks
>subscribers.  Despite the "punks" in the name it seems to be somewhat
>more of a mainstream group.  Nevertheless I am determined to act as
>though the group favors unlimited access to privacy tools by individuals
>and to post under that assumption.  If it comes to the point that someone
>complains there may have to be some air clearing but I don't think it's
>likely to come up.

I don't disagree _necessarily_ about separate lists. But I think some
discussion beforehand would have been nice....were any of you reading this
involved in such discussions? I know I wasn't, nor was there any public
list discussion that I saw.

There are lots of issues we could consider about future directions for our
main group, or for sublists, etc. The "by invitation only" nature of the
Coderpunks list, at least before the L. Todd Masco announcement of its
existence, seems like rather a harsh way of avoiding off-topic posts.

It does distress me that the main list is now so bogged down in
back-and-forth flames, ad nauseum. And contrary to Perry straw man
assertions, I have never argued for this as a desirable thing. My main
objection to Perry's objections is that he rarely posts essays or work
results, preferring instead to send "perrygrams" stating his unhappiness
with some topic. My preference, and I think my posts generally show it, is
to avoid "timgrams" saying a topic if off-charter and simply lead by
example, as it were, by writing articles and essays I think are germane.
Those who don't like my choice of topics are free to delete them. But this
is a different thing than saying the current banality of the list
discussion is _caused_ by me, as both Perry and Detweiler seem to think is
the case. Basic errors of logic covered in Logic 101.

>Cypherpunks continues to have a lot of vitality.  What I object to most
>is the back and forth arguments people get into.  I don't mind reading
>one message off-topic, but to have the thread drag on for days, with
>dozens of messages, is wasteful.  People should just make their points
>and let them stand.  They shouldn't feel they have to keep coming back
>and refuting the other guy.

I of course agree with Hal on this.

--Tim May

Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."