From: "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+@CMU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:45:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scientologists may subpoena anonymous remailer records?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960410112759.13271B-100000@eff.org>
Message-ID: <4lP0MUS00YUv4jzXV4@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org>
To: fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
cc: rnewman@cybercom.net, grady@northcoast.com, kaj.malmberg@mallu.pp.fi,
        sthomson@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailer threat: Scientologists may subpoena
anonymous remailer records?

Ron, thanks for the background about the CoS's renewed attempts to get a 
search warrant for anon.penet.fi. I hope you don't get dragged into this 
any more than you already are.

Grady Ward writes below, in a message dated this morning:

  > I would say it is virtually certain that U.S. anon remailers will
  > be subpoenaed as well as any foreign ones in which they can handle
  > the authorities.

Yikes! Jim's alert was timely.

-Declan

[This message is archived at http://fight-censorship.dementia.org/top/]


// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //


Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:18:35 -0500
From: Ron Newman <rnewman@cybercom.net>
Subject: Re: Clams subpoena'ing anonymous remailer records?

Here's what Grady said to me in several messages.  Note that
they seem to be after anon.penet.fi again too.

(He has given me blanket permission to distribute his e-mail to me to
 anyone who may find it of use.)

-------
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 08:52:38 -0800
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>

I've just received e-mail from:

kaj.malmberg@mallu.pp.fi (Kaj Malmberg)

The Poilice CID in Helsinki who is being pushed by the criminal
cult yet again to get a search warrant for Julf's anonymous remailer,
claiming I have been violating my injunction to post cult crap.

I told him that as usual the criminal cult is lying and that I gave him
and Julf explicit permission to investigate any or all of my posts I
have ever made through the remailer.

The criminal cult is trying to use the fact of my injunction to further
their own conspiracy theories.  South Africa, Finland, where does
it end?

Grady

-------------
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 07:41:25 -0800
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: Kaj Malmberg, Finland

At 10:11 AM 4/5/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Why did you give them this permission?  I think it sets a VERY bad
>precedent.  Chris Schafmeister was upset when I mentioned this
>on the IRC channel yesterday afternoon -- he thinks you're being
>too nice, polite, and cooperative for your own good.

I like to err on the side of openness. Each to their own I suppose.
Basically I trust Kaj to sense who is the criminal perpetrator in this case.
I also sent him the set of trial stipulations in the Snow White case that
ought to give him very interesting background on the criminal cult.

>In my opinion, Julf and the Finnish cop should Just Say No
>to the CoS.

He is still free to do as he wishes.

------------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 14:16:32 -0700
To: Ron Newman <rnewman@cybercom.net>
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: a few more questions

[Regarding the depositions. --Declan]

No one was with me.

Total hours day one: 7.5
Total hours day two: 3.25 hours, as per order of Judge Infante.
Also I believe all american anonymous remailers will be subpoenaed
for their records as will all my ISPs, and contents of safety
deposit box held as evidence.

At 04:56 PM 4/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Was anyone with you (on YOUR side) at either day's deposition?
>
>How many hours total did you go each day?
>

--------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 19:37:57 -0700
To: Ron Newman <rnewman@cybercom.net>
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: what is the latest regarding penet?

I don't know what's up today, but Julf wrote yesterday
to tell me that my id grady@northcoast.com had NOT
been used to go through his remailer.

No word on what the police are doing to subpoena his system,
if they are.

Grady

--------------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 22:57:26 -0700
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: what is the latest regarding penet?


That is all he told me: that he could verify to authorities
that grady@northcoast.com had not used his remailer.

He didn;t mention anyone else or how he was helping the CID
with their inquiries.  Yes, you can put this datum on the web.

At 01:52 AM 4/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Was something else used to go through his remailer?
>
>Has he said anything in public about this?
>
>Should I post your message about it on my web site?


Grady Ward           |                   | http://www.northcoast.com/~grady
+1 707 826 7715      |                   |
(voice/24hr FAX)     | 34877c8566839cb7  |
grady@northcoast.com | aeab8ec5e5ee97fe  |

--
Ron Newman             rnewman@cybercom.net
Web: http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html


Here are some other messages that Grady sent me in the
last few days.  I'll put some of this on my web site in
the near future.

------------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:34:20 -0700
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: deposition

At 11:05 AM 4/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>When are the remaining 1.5 hours of deposition scheduled?
>Are you holding firm to the 9 hour limit?

I held firm to my nine hour limit; they held firm to their 2+ day limit.

Hogan called me a "liar" on the record, a term I reciprocated on the record.

This time there were a lot of questions about you two, Ron and Shelley.
I predict that you two will be served a subpoena soon to either be
deposed yourself or to have your e-mail and archives produced in evidence.

We got onto the phone with Judge Infante and he told us to finish by 12:15.

Which we did.  The only other issue is that the cult wanted to immediately
seize my safety deposit box contents.  I asked that any seizures be made
pursuant to a Special Master or other neutral party taking control and
analyzing the significance of the contents of the backup disks therein.

We got back on the phone with Infante and while he did not sanction
the seizure by the scientologists, he did "freeze" the contents so as
to preserve possible evidence.

Grady

We finished as per the Judges order at 12:15.  The criminal cultists were
somewhat unhappy at their interrogation being cut short.

One strange man whose picture I will post soon was apparently the
go-between between Warren McShane and ??? (speculating David
Miscavige/OSA).  The receptionist said she had not seen as many faxes in
one day as had come to her office during my deposition. He was constantly
ferrying stuff from the fax to McShane and Kobrin or constantly talking on
a cellphone.  But he and McShane looked for the world as simply carrying
out their master's orders. 

-------------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:36:27 -0700
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: who were the CoS lawyers who deposed you?

Hogan and Eric Lieberman.  Both were assisted by Kobrin and McShane.

Also in the room was a cult computer expert, and a couple of helpers
for Lieberman and McShane.

----------
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:41:46 -0700
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: Henson page added, Grady page updated

Today's deposition realaudio will be available as depo_7 through depo_10
in about an hour at my site.  You were the topic of some detailed
questions about e-mail and phone conversations.

------------
To: Ron Newman <rnewman@cybercom.net>
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: who did they ask about in the depo, besides Shelley and me?

At 06:38 PM 4/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone listened to one of the files and noticed that they asked
>about Maureen Garde.  Who else did they ask about?

They were most interested in *you*, then Jeff Jacobsen, then Keith Henson,
then each of the other list people in turn. If I were a betting man, I
would say you are going to be subpoenaed to be deposed real soon now.

--------------
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:17:01 -0700
To: rnewman@cybercom.net (Ron Newman)
From: Grady Ward <grady@northcoast.com>
Subject: Re: what is the latest regarding penet?

Ron,

Yes do please distribute my messages as you deem
necessary.  Some people ought to be aware of what is
coming down.

My feeling is that they will be doing anything they can
to attempt to produce "hard evidence" that I am part of
the Grand Conspiracy. I would say it is virtually certain
that U.S. anon remailers will be subpoenaed as well as any
foreign ones in which they can handle the authorities.

I did tell you that they sprung a surpise motion on me and
Judge Infante during day #2 of the deposition by asking him
if their computer expert could make copies of the contents thereof
to look for contraband?

I objected on the grounds that it was a thinly disguised seizure
request (which had already been denied by Judge Whyte) and that
the box contained much private material such as letters to my wife, etc.

The judge did agree to another motion however made by Hogan
to "freeze" the contents of the box to "preserve evidence".

Obviously any motion that they make to examine the contents will
be met by a demand that only a mutually agree 3rd party using
an agreed upon protocol (i.e. grepping for an agreed list of
patterns) will be permitted. No mass copying, no random cult
fishing.

Grady Ward           |                   | http://www.northcoast.com/~grady
+1 707 826 7715      |                   |
(voice/24hr FAX)     | 34877c8566839cb7  |
grady@northcoast.com | aeab8ec5e5ee97fe  |