From: liberty@gate.net (Jim Ray)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 06:56:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private e-mail...[was Re: AP]
Message-ID: <199605211545.LAA11970@osceola.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Must ALL my e-mail be re-posted to this damn list? I will
AGAIN remind careful readers: _Anything_ that does not
begin with the words: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED.... and end
with my little play on the sound of J. Edgar Freeh's name
may *or may not* be from me, and is more likely to simply
be from someone:a) clue-impaired and b) noisy. Actual Jim
Ray posts also tend to have fewer typos, and be both more
detailed and shorter than this did, because I proof them
and I tend not to proofread private e-mail.

I will now clutter the list to respond to this nitwit's
moronic claims in public, please direct all Perrygrams
to <jf_avon@citenet.net>  [GROAN!--Why me???] Oh yeah.

Ray's Corrolary to Murphy:"You will be spared _NOTHING_."
<sigh>

I'll attempt to cut as much as possible to put wasted space
to a minimum. My apologies to those not interested, who are
advised to hit delete now (I'd imagine that includes many
or most of you).
JMR

jf_avon@citenet.net for some strange reason posted:

...

>Is there a Detweiller FAQ somewhere?

There's even a page, near the top of my page. He's also
mentioned under "don't feed the animals" in the welcome
message. He is intelligent, and he's quieter than he
used to be, perhaps taking his meds.

>Interesting.  Has AP ever popped-up in the conventional medias?

AFAIK not yet, but I could be wrong. If I were Slick Willie, it
would have been all over the place by now.

[BTW, for the record, I don't make a habit of calling those who
would advocate violence "loon" in a public forum. There are thus
self-preservation advantages to actually convincing the clueless
to lurk, look at message headers, and read "Netiquet" before
posting. <sigh>]

>Then, again, I know an awfull lot of people who would applaude Bell.  
>But most of them are not computer litterate.  They are from another 
>generation, not brainwashed by "Don't ask what your country can 
>do for you; ask what you can do for your country"...

How do these people vote, though? [Prediction: majority statist.]
You can't complain when the govt. gives what you ask for...
[Absent the unConstitutional ballot-laws we are blessed with here
in Florida.]

>> I'm 35, and I may actually die before I do. I hope not.

[Sniped to convey no context whatsoever] I was talking about
the very low odds of me someday actually *respecting* a living
US President, for those of you without telepathy skills. I
*would* feel old by haing this revealed, but I just learned
of a cypherpunk _grandmother_! [No, I won't say who.]

>[Black humor] any AP proponents with an eye (or a buck) on you?  :)

Possibly. Bell insists Libertarians like me shouldn't worry.
I worry, because statists' money spends just as well as mine.

Tim joked a while back about putting a "fire-and-forget" K
out on me when I was *last* misquoted as the "Cyberangel." I
seem to attract this crap, but I assure you it's NOT AT ALL
deliberate. All is forgiven, no apology needed, just please
try to be careful and remember the other 1000+ subscribers.

...

>> This kind of thinking might authorize a massive Cherokee
>> massacre if it spread, IMO.
>
>Please, do point out the similarities and the differences... I think 
>that the context is very different.

Not really, only the time in history. Their property was 100%
taken, and they were marched to OK from GA. The IRS may be
bad...but they aren't THAT bad...[disclaimer: I am (a tiny)
part Cherokee, and I hate the IRS (a lot).]

...

>
>Are you talking of an open war a la Bosnia?  

Hopefully not. It is what I fear.

>> We must either leave some wrongs in the
>> past or be cursed with them forever.
>
>This is what I was talking about taking things out of context.  Since 
>you agree on that, the Cherokee thing is ruled out.  But govt action 
>are a matter of the present and future.  Some peoples see it as 
>legitimate self-defense.

I disagree on ruling Cherokees out, _I_ decide what I rule out,
not you. The legitimate *peaceful* self defense options have
not yet been adequately explored, IMO.

>...

>> Bottom line for me: "Two wrongs don't make a right." 
>
>Please state the basic premise that make you declare what is "wrong"
>in the context of AP.

"Thou shalt not kill..." [pretty basic stuff here...]

>  I am not bugging you simply to do so.  For
>example, do you think that, for ethical reasons, you are not only
>justified but actually *obligated* to use physical violence in
>certain contexts?  I guess not.

No, just not as a first-resort in non-life-threatening contexts.

>  But many peoples think they have
>to...

If they break my door down and want my gun or PGPkey, I may shoot.
No matter who does this, they could die if they go far enough.
I will not seek to kill anyone from afar, though, and I'd have
to feel in immediate fear for my life before I can morally
justify killing another person. Luckily, it hasn't happened
so far.

>I think that you simply try to evade the necessity of defining for 
>yourself what exactly is what the govt is doing.

Taxation is theft, I fail to see your point. Murder isn't the
sole, or even first, option to prevent theft when you can do
things like lock your doors. [encrypt] Did the OKCity bombing
reduce the size of government, or increase it?
(As I predicted, increase. I hate it when I'm right.)
Violence begats violence. Always.

...

>General opinion is not what define truth nor reality.  If I refuse
>to pay my taxes, they'll use physical violence to get what they
>want.  You might object that I enjoyed the benefits of the spending
>of taxes, but I am yet to see any contract that I entered with
>"society".
>

At this point, as an individual protest, a (suicidal) "freeman"
like stand is justified if you like the idea of being a dead hero.
I don't. Yet. There are other options. But general opinion _does_
define political reality, so best that there be more responsible
uses of anonymity at this very delicate point in the remailernet's
political life. There seem to be less.

...me -- [AssPol would have to entail an oligarchy...]

>This scheme is *not* an oligarchy.  Pay a visit to any good dictionary 
>near you.  Words have precise meaning and it is *much* better to 
>stick to it...

I said entail, *you* read a dictionary. The scheme relies on $,
and more $ gives you more "votes" on who to kill. Oligarchy, a
rule by the rich. I stuck exactly to it. Read more carefully
in the *non-header* part of messages, too.

>Actually, since it is ruled by money, it might be a "buckarchy", but 
>again, everybody can spare a few bucks, so it might be a democracy 
>too if you insist on twisting the meaning of words.

HUH???? "buckarchy" isn't in my dictionary...I neither twisted
*nor invented* any words. Democracy is also a legitimate fear,
and the operative word in your statement is "might." Well,
might NOT also...

I happen to prefer a constitutional republic to democracy anyway.
Tim May has written well on this, and on why. [Hi Tim.]

>> and I think I'd be an easy target for
>> wealthy statists, who could also use the system.
>
>At first look, of course.  But operationnally, you have to consider the 
>mind of the statist to figure out the likeliness of their using the 
>system? I do not deny that it is very likely that a few statists will 
>use the system.  But most won't because they don't like to slain 
>their milk cows.

That's not how I view statists. Your faith is admirable,
but I won't share it soon. Hitler, Stalin, Clinton, Bush,
Biden, Dole, etc. - they all would just as soon see me as
hamburger as milk cow. As hamburger I'm no longer such a
smart-ass under their skins.

I have seen how history describes the minds of statists who
don't get their way & it's not pretty. _Many_ statists have
the $ to kill me, without AP, this would make me cheap and
compromise the privacy of the remailernet [probably] or just
cause remailers to be outlawed. If I operated a remailer,
and you bought or sold 500 lbs of cannabis through it, I
would try to cooperate to the minimum possible extent of
the law, ad perhaps go to jail for contempt, it depends.

If you tried AP, I would let the BATF (yes, I hate them,
too) log all your use (while trying to somehow protect my
innocent users' privacy). I again boil it down to my Jim
Ray test:"Where's the victim?"<imagine Clara Peller here>


>> If Bell could post
>> fewer times, he'd be more convincing. He is in many killfiles.
>> JMR

And now, it's likely that I am, too. Allow me to reduce noise
even furter by preemptively saying "Plonk" right now, so it
doesn't need to be announced twice on the poor, groaning list.

>Many peoples cannot stand to see any opinions that differs from 
>theirs.  But why care at all be read by such peoples?

It's not that, I was speaking of post-frequency-noise. I had
seen the idea before Jimbell ever had it, in Tim May's
Cyphernomicon.

Tim has interesting, different things to say. Jimbell doesn't.

Whether I agree has nothing at all to do with repetitiousness.
I will try VERY hard not to post again on this. Please help
by letting me have the last word (for once). How's this:

 Unsollicited[sic] public posting of private e-mail will be
 refuted at US165 $/h Any sender of such material will be
 considered as to have accepted the above mentionned[sic]
 terms.

JMR

PS, while I am making non-crypto-noise anyway...
================================================
Tim also wrote [in another message/thread]:

<...>
>(ObCaveat: I personally think a free society cannot/should not outlaw
>discrimination in any form, save that by government.)

Which is exactly the opposite of what we are faced with right now.
Gee, I wonder why race relations are doing so poorly nowadays?
We need more government intervention in this vital area...
</sarcasm>

 Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy.

"Your federal government needs your money so that it can perform
 vital services for you that you would not think up in a million
 years." -- Dave Barry
___________________________________________________________________
PGP id.E9BD6D35  51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE  53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8
  <liberty@gate.net>       http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray
___________________________________________________________________


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