From: elkins@antares.aero.org (Michael Elkins)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:54:35 +0800
To: paul.elliott@Hrnowl.LoneStar.ORG (Paul Elliott)
Subject: Re: PGP MIME INTERNET DRAFT considered harmful.
In-Reply-To: <31a3910d.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <199605230403.VAA14508@zzyzx.aero.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3941.1071713579.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3941.1071713579.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On May 22, paul.elliott@Hrnowl.LoneStar.ORG (Paul Elliott) wrote:
> I as you should know, I have never said that base64 should never be used.
> I merely say that signatures should be taken over the original binary data.
> Base64 can be used for transport as needed, but it should be a convention
> that the any base64 is removed before signatures are checked.

However, this method does not allow for any verification of the content-type
headers for that part.

> As my examples show, some users may have legitimate reasons for
> wishing to attach a generally useful PGP signature to a MIME message.

> PGP MIME should allow users to sign those documents the user wishes
> to sign, faithfully transmitting those signatures to the receiver. It should 
> not dictate that a user will sign an unintelligible artifact of a data 
> transmission system.

Your last two comments really illustrate the divison that we've previously
seen on the pgp-mime list.  On the one side you have those who want to
include the MIME headers in the digital signature, and on the other are those
who want the signature to be over the data in it's "binary" (unencoded)
form.  I _do_ see merit in the latter.  However, that was not the goal of
my draft.  What I've been trying to get across is that my draft does not
preclude you from writing your own draft on how to transmit detached
signatures along with your message (perhaps something like
multipart/pgp-signed).

> Pressure will build for PGP MIME to support binary datapaths.

When this occurs, I will glady remove that restriction.

> PGP MIME will have to go through a complicated migration path
> to phase in this transition. All this complexity can be avoided by
> doing the right thing now.

Complex migration path?  How so?  Implementations that accept both
7-bit and 8-bit PGP messages but only generate 7-bit messages will
not suffer in the least if one day we decide it's ok to generate 8-bit
signed messages.  They will still accept either.  Newer versions of
the software can make use of the 8-bit path and it will interoperate
perfectly with older versions.

> Users should have a policy of only attesting to statements by digital
> signature, that they know _of their own personal knowledge_ is true.
> Any other policy is to court disaster.

This argument, which while true, doesn't make your approach any safer.  Any
software used is a proxy, and no matter how brilliant or naive the user
is, it's still a proxy.  There is some amount of trust that the software
is doing the "right thing."  It doesn't matter if I'm signing a PGP/MIME
message in my e-mail client or running PGP to encrypt a .gif or .jpg.

> I have gotten the impression that you guys have stopped listening.
> Everyone seems hell-bent on standardizing this inferior system that
> will lockin a poor design. I hoped that by appealing to a larger
> audience I could get more articulate and respected people to
> persuade you to rethink. Perhaps some of the cypherpunks can
> say something that will provoke an attack of sanity that will
> stop this inexorable march toward a bad standard.

No, we haven't stopped listening.  We've just heard these arguments arguments
over and over again for the past six months and nobody from that camp has
proposed an alternative.  Again, I do not believe the two methods are
mutually exclusive.  PGP/MIME is not meant do what I term "object security,"
it's meant for "transport security."

I think perhaps it's not so much PGP/MIME that you don't like, but the
whole multipart/security architecture in general.

me
-- 
Michael Elkins <elkins@aero.org>		http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~me
PGP key fingerprint: EB B1 68 32 3F B5 54 F9  6C AF 4E 94 5A EB 90 EC


--Boundary..3941.1071713579.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00003.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogMi42LjIK
CmlRQ1ZBd1VCTWFQamtHTjlvV0JnaFBESkFRSHc3UVArSUhtblpjY1VZeVdo
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djMybFloQlU2NWlVSzN2CktnOVNwNTFENGxrPQo9V01mUAotLS0tLUVORCBQ
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--Boundary..3941.1071713579.multipart/signed--