From: "Mark O. Aldrich" <maldrich@grci.com>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:08:02 +0800
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fingerprinting annoyance
In-Reply-To: <adbd6595020210043518@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.91.960514115326.10594D-100000@grctechs.va.grci.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 May 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 6:26 PM 5/13/96, Mark O. Aldrich wrote:
> >On Mon, 13 May 1996, Senator Exon wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> i can fill out and manipulate the card myself i just need a
> >> working method.
<snip>
> 
> >of like a key certificate.  If you really can dork the card, have ten
> >different people volunteer one print each.  There's no way that they'll
> >ever be able to use that as evidence in a court or for any other purpose,
> >either.
> 
> A stupid idea. As the employer, I wouldn't have to prove it a court of
> law...suspicion alone that some of my employees were fucking up a security
> system might be enough for me to either a. promote them to the Tiger Team,
> or b. fire their asses.

I think the assertion that Tim is making in regard to an "employer" in the
traditional work-at-will sense is correct, but it's not the one I was
addressing.  If an employer seeks prints and you don't want to give them,
then don't work there.  If, however, the point of gathering the prints is
to record them in the FBI's database, and Senator Exon is worried about
later committing a crime and having print records used to identify him, 
then using the prints of ten different people will muck up such a 
process. 

Senator Exon did not fully explain the situation as to whether or not the 
certification sought will result in fingerprints simply being _checked_, 
or if they will be _recorded_ for later use, nor did he specify to which 
outcome he objects, if not both.

> 
> (I just can't understand where this pervasive meme is coming from here on
> this list, the notion that employers are severely limited in what they can
> do to employees unless they can "prove it in court. Like it or not, most
> employees in the United States are still employed "at will," and are not
> covered by employment contracts such as some executives and the like get.)

I think it comes from some of the statutes being placed on employers.  
The citizens have repeatedly used the legal machine to force employers to 
have to compete is less than a pure, capitalistic environment.  
Monitoring employees is one area that's caused some states to pass laws 
regulating this notion - they have rejected the "if you don't like it, 
don't take the job" premise you've stated here.  Likewise, the minimum 
wage is a similar legislative action we've taken to stop employers from 
using a "if you won't work under these conditions, you don't have a job" 
requisite.  The "pure" capitalistic approach would be "if you won't 
work for $1.00 per hour, take a hike up the street."  We've said that 
this is illegal (at least in most cases), and we force employers to pay 
every employee at least some arbitrary sum greater than than amount.  
Thus, the meme may be the simple extrapolation of these ideals into areas 
over which they do not yet have legal impact.

> 
> >If you're forced to do this in person with a tech, you can continuously
> >"fight" the grip they have on your hand and smudge the card.  However,
> 
> Sure. It makes it easy for the employer to simply say "Next candidate."

Unless they want you badly enough.  I've been able to avoid a number of 
situations because it was not cost effective for them to secure the 
services of someone less qualified.  Policy is great until it gets in the 
way of people making money - almost anything can be "waived" if they want 
you to help them make money, and their greed outweighs their sense of duty 
to comply with a given so-called "security" policy.

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|      Liberty is truly dead              |Mark Aldrich                 | 
|    when the slaves are willing          |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering     | 
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