From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:44:24 +0800
To: Pat Trainor <ptrainor@aura.title14.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics 1-3
Message-ID: <9605200337.AB02122@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 19 May 96 at 20:31, you, Pat Trainor, wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 1996, Jean-Francois Avon wrote:

> > Back to AP, I did not invent the scheme nor do I approve or like
> > it a lot.  But I find it very interesting to discuss.
> > 
> > The author of AP is Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>.
> 
>  That was what I was interested in. You see, I read a story exactly
> along the same lines a long time ago, and I thought the group would
> like to know just what happenned during that 'scheme'.
> 
> > I would gladly read the long letter that you wrote.
> 
>  Here's the text, and if you didn't see it posted, please repost
> with a cc to Mr. Bell. If you did see it, then just erase.. But the
> damnest thing that my email is so squirrely!!
> 
>  Thanks again!!
> 
> (if anyone wrote me in a reply, I never got it. ISP is putting a new
> T1 in, and this is causing errors in traffic I'm told.)
> 
> >From ptrainor@aura.title14.com Sun May 19 20:23:48 1996
> Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 22:09:16 -0400
> From: Pat Trainor <ptrainor@aura.title14.com>
> To: jimbell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.crypto, talk.politics.libertarian,
>     alt.politics.libertarian, alt.society.anarchy, alt.privacy,
>     alt.security.pgp, alt.activism, alt.anarchism, alt.cyberpunk,
>     alt.politics.datahighway
> Subject: Re: Insurable Interest Assassination Politics 1-3
> 
> On Thu, 9 May 1996, jimbell wrote:
> 
> > > How will this be enforced, someone with more resources,
> > >money, drugs, guns, better planned religion, icbms, will start to
> > >gather "like minded individuals" and start to tell others how to
> > >live., some will join them, others will fight, and we're back
> > >where we started.
> > 
> > No, because any threatening individual or group will be "predicted
> > to death" posthaste.
> 
>  I haven't followed this thread from the beginning, but I recognize
> the theme. I read _eons_ ago a short story in which this exact
> mechanism was used to enforce a leaderless society. Now I'm no
> economist, nor historian (future or otherwise) but I do vividly
> remember this story.
>  It was in a science-fiction compilation, as I was very prone to
> read (Nebula Awards, etc..) in my early days in the military and
> before.
> 
>  My question would be: have you ever read a story with this precice
> theme? The assisns looked like (sorry) Star Wars storm troopers in
> white, air conditioned suits. They were not anonymous, except that
> you couldn't see their faces (is that enough?).
> 
>  The story treated the same (apparently) hypothesis you mention. The
> 'Assassin's Guild' I think was the title.

Irrelevant to AP since nobody knows anybody, nor what anybody else 
do.
 
>  One of the problems in the model I read about was that the area to
> be policed was too large to allow an elite minority to cover
> properly, or even effectively.

Again, irrelevant to AP.  This scheme suppose some clan against 
another (the govt).  Re-read Jim Bell's essay and you'll realize that 
it wouldn't work that way at all.

>  It was a situation of ratios. To be superior, even with a
> technological edge, you need numbers. You have to offset the balance
> somehow. Population control was attempted by the guild in the end as
> a measure to increase the odds in their favor. This caused an
> understandably intense reaction with the masses, who were ultimately
> those being served.

Not in AP.  Because the aim when using AP against government or any 
other entity is not to get rid of it by killing it's members, but 
rather to get rid of it by scaring any individual that would 
participate to it.
 
>  Another problem was that the technology required for a large
> coordinated effort required organization of a military nature (rank,
> etc..). This was necessary due to the myriad of decisions that had
> to be made.



<Lots of stuff absolutely irrelevant to AP deleted>.  

Re-read the essay again. 


>  Surveillance was the issue. In order for the Guild to be able to
> identify a problem, an immense amount of surveillance was required.
> Again the technology and the infrastructure required to support it.

Are you saying that problems are difficults to identify?


>  The decision had to be made by superiors who were in touch with all
> the information from all areas under surveillance to make the
> ultimate decision. There needed to be, effectively, a steering
> committee to determine if the proposed action was both affordable
> and warranted.



To Cypherpunks: I did not write the following paragraph.  It was
probably from Jim Bell, but I only guess.  

To: Pat Trainor: Ask Jim Bell to send you his paper. I'm
sure he will do it wilfully.

Pat Trainor wrote:
>somebody wrote:

> > To the eventual outcome.  The system's inevitable.  Read the
> > essay; it explains why.   I'll forward it to you; I assume it's no
> > longer available on your newsfeed.
> 
>  I wouldn't mind reading it, it sounds a lot like what I'm
> describing.
> 
> > They might be wrong.  I might be right.
> 
>  The Assassin's Guild was bought into in phases by the ruling
> elements of all major powers only after they had all lost their
> ability to maintain an effective repel borders and the place (earth)
> was a mess.
> 
>  Realistically, you can't build from the ashes any faster than
> anyone else is. And human nature doesn't change because of a new
> caveat in religion or 'law'. A human will always be a human,
> regardless of what law they proport to follow or heed.
> 
> > Thomas Edison tried hundreds of differnet materials to make light
> > bulb filaments before he found one that would work.
> 
>  Actually he directed experiments! :) But this statement reminded me
> of the 'Infinite Number of Monkeys' theory, except applied to 'self
> rule', well, I guess not, well..?
> 
> > And BTW, we're already all "in fear of our lives."  You know,
> > muggings and carjackings.    How is my system worse,
> > quantitatively?
> 
>  Actually, you'll find folks doing the most desparate things in a
> desparate world. If you try to forge order out of chaos, you quickly
> find that the order you are trying to enforce feeds the chaos. You
> create your own increasing difficulty by default. A society (or
> group of societies) in anarchy will fear order. This, coupled with
> the fact that you have to create from the same resoucres the masses
> have access to, makes your efforts incredibly difficult. You will
> never find a unified agreement among a society that can't feed or
> cloth itself. If you do, you instantly become what you are telling
> the people you are trying to prevent. Folks will see through this
> veil and vanquish such an effort favoring a predictable anarchy over
> a concerted organized rule.
> 
> > >To change the world you have to understand the rules,
> > 
> > But you don't necessarily have to _follow_ the rules!
> 
>  That's a good point, and one I think I've shown means that you will
> always have rules. Sometimes yours, sometimes theirs, if lucky a bit
> of both.. But they will be there. We are a self-righteous
> pack-oriented species. We thrive on group individuality! That must
> be why psychologists make so much money!
> 
> > The system I've described will work even if only a small
> > proportion of the population uses it, at first.  That's what makes
> > it so amazing, really.
> 
>  Again, I'd appreciate a look at your paper. 
> 
>  Now for the subtle problems pointed out accurately in the
> Assassin's Guild. As a strategic planner for a living, I have
> learned to live by a good rule: Make your best estimates for a
> project's completion, then double them.
> 
>  A support structure required for the Assassin's Guild required
> things you would never immediately think of. Support from several
> areas are required. Remember, you are basically operating a country
> with soft borders covering all areas, no matter how distant.
> 
>  For solely the guild's efforts, no others, a few of the things
> required are:
> 
> Manufacturing
> Fabrication
> Research & Developement
> Quality Assurance
> Medical
> Clothing
> Shelter
> Food
> Recreation
> Self-Rule
> Coordination
> Information Exchange
> Communication
> Information Retrieval
> Surveillance
> Commerce
> Expansion
> Earth Sciences
> 
>  The trouble is, each and every one of the above is subject to
> espionage, revolution, corruption, pranks, etc.. Therefore each must
> be treated with complete encapsulation within the guild. The only
> way to exclude interference from within or without, was to closely
> monitor each and every aspect of the guild's organization.
> Self-policing.
> 
>  When you start visualizing what the organization would actually be
> running (never mind the seemingly impossible task of starting the
> organization from scratch), it seems a very impractical proposition.
> 
>  Plus, the guild found all the military stuff laying around pretty
> useful.. Folks were NOT excited about another police state..
> 
>  Anyhow, sorry for the long post, but I thought perhaps you'd enjoy
> the problems the Assassin's Guild had, and compare it to your own
> model.
> 
> later!
> 
> pat
> :)
> 
>      Pat Trainor * WARNING: THE OPINIONS I EXPRESS MAY NOT BE MY OWN
>      * finger for key: ptrainor@aura.title14.com
>      http://www.title14.com/ 
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>     D6 "Winning may not be everything, but losing is NOTHING!" -Ed
>     Bighead
> 
> 
> 

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