From: Nathan Syfrig <nsyfrig@condor.depaul.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 09:22:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why does the state still stand:
In-Reply-To: <199605181326.JAA05100@pair>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960518142018.8331D-100000@condor.depaul.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I normally don't read or post to this list, so I'm hoping e$pam will pick
up any relevant replies or people Cc: me personally (information overload).

My ignorance is probably showing, but it seems that we have a real
fundamental problem here.  IP numbers of re-mailers, whether free or 
commercial, are easily identified and therefore become easy sniffing 
targets.  This means that the choke points currently used to censor and 
otherwise restrict information can easily come into play - i.e. ISP's 
(we've already seen censorship being applied to at the ISP level, so we 
have sufficient aggregation to filter and sniff).

Therefore, in the abscence of roving remailer destinations that change 
quick enough to evade some sniffing (notice, I didn't say avoid), it 
seems that there really is no anonymity.  Even if we could randomize 
destinations (a la Pirate Radio with roving dial locations), that would 
defeat the purpose - the ability to allow anybody to use anonymous 
remailers.  So, if we feel this capability is important (and I do), how 
do we solve the problem?

Nathan
(usual "views are my own" diatribe here)

On Sat, 18 May 1996, e$pam wrote:

> Forwarded by Robert Hettinga
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 07:19:39 -0700
>  From: Hal <hfinney@shell.portal.com>
>  To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
>  Subject: Re:  Why does the state still stand:
>  Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>  Precedence: bulk
> 
> 
> From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
>  > I did not
>  > include offshore.com.ai in Anguilla due to its high cost; I consider anything
>  > over 25$ a month to be impractical.
>  >
>  > _Country/Area_  _Name_                          _Email_
>  > Anguilla        Cable & Wireless                webmaster@candw.com.ai
>  > [...]
>  
>  Thanks very much for making this list.  However I would not be so quick
>  to reject http://offshore.com.ai.  It is run by long-time Cypherpunk
>  Vince Cate, apparently specifically for the kinds of purposes we are
>  discussing.  His project was discussed in a recent issue of Wired, I
>  think the May issue.  (I have no contact with Cate, and have never met
>  him as far as I can recall.)
>  
>  For doing something like running a remailer which will post material
>  which is illegal and/or copyrighted in the U.S., you are going to need a
>  service which can stand up to pressure.  Presumably some monetary
>  incentive is going to be a necessity.  Of course by this standard $25 a
>  month is pretty inconsequential.
>  
>  One issue is whether these banking-secrecy countries like Anguilla are
>  followers of the Berne convention or other international copyright
>  regulations.  Banking secrecy and software piracy don't necessarily go
>  hand in hand.  I hear a lot about copyright violations in China but not
>  in the Caribbean.  So actually it isn't clear that this country is the
>  right location for a remailer that can post arbitrary material.
>  
>  As for the costs to the remailer operator, he simply passes those on to
>  his customers.  I think in the long run onshore remailers will be forced
>  to take measures to restrict copyright-violating posts.  So if your
>  choice is between paying nothing and not getting your whistle-blowing
>  message posted, or paying $10 and getting it out on the nets, then
>  hopefully it is worth that much to you.
>  
>  We have discussed for-pay remailers and the consensus has been that no
>  one would use them when others run for free.  However now I think the
>  false premise is being exposed, that free remailers simply will not be
>  able to run in the current mode for much longer.  Once a single remailer
>  operator has been fined thousands of dollars because somebody posted some
>  copyrighted message, I don't think you will find many people eager to
>  sign up as operators.  So this dream of a volatile collection of
>  remailers popping up and going away just doesn't work in my view.  Why
>  would anyone offer a service knowing that he was exposing himself to
>  liability like this?  It would be just a game of Russian roulette,
>  waiting to see whether it is your remailer which gets the bullet in the
>  form of a post which violates the copyright of someone with deep
>  pockets.
>  
>  Hal
>  
> 
> 
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