From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:08:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: TCM: mafia as a paradigm for cyberspace
Message-ID: <9605222053.AA24683@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take note: If you want me to read you, cc me since I unsubscriVed :)
from Cypherpunks...

While frothing at the mouth (and god knows what other sphincters...), 
on a 22 May 96 at 12:37, somebody that behaves like a Rotweiller 
wrote:

> oh, so in other words, a lot of "innocent" people will be murdered
> under AP. ah, another great "feature", not a "bug", right??

Yes, but please note that the point for the validating of his statement 
is that even if this will happens, overall, *less innocents* will 
suffer from the seemingly random violence of AP than from the actual 
system.  He might be wrong, but you seem to bring no new knowledge 
that would elucidate the question.

Should the US have not dropped the A-Bomb on Japan and let happen 10 
times mores casualties (from both sides)?

The following paragraphs illustrate very well the way our local 
Rotweiller sees the world, which is very close to the vision of most 
statists.

> ah, like murder. I see.  well, I think you are violating my rights
> by disagreeing with me. I shall arrange your consequences
> accordingly.


> but who decides what is wrong? the arbitrary opinion of some single
> human idiot out anywhere in the world? don't you see the tyranny of
> this?

> it is far worse than the tyranny of a government if I were to
> be killed by someone who believes that I violated his rights by
> breathing air particles or whatever. via AP, you wish to give him
> the mechanism to murder me without trace. 

Why do you fear so much for yourself?  I guess, thoses who want to 
murder for all sort of reasons like hunting white baby seals or 
smoking in public simply share your psycho-epistemology.  They would 
have no reasons to put a contract on you.  Or would they anyways?

> deny rights, legitimacy, justice, blah, blah, blah. the terms you
> use have no meaning in the system you are advocating. there are no
> "rights" in an anarchy, because a government is the entity created
> to safeguard/protect them. all actions are legitimate in an
> anarchy, because there is no civilized system that rejects any ones
> in particular.

By definition, you are right.  But note that *they* never advocated
true anarchy, only *you* claim that they do.

Their vision of Life clearly entail some vision of Rights, Rules of 
Conduct, etc.  They did *not* rule out laws, they only said that they 
do not like laws that are there to oppress peoples.  Now, might you 
say, how are you gonna know?  Because your philosophy is somewhat of 
a cross between Nietche and Sartre, you see no way out.  But they 
(proponents of AP) have a vision of life that value, as the good old 
american constitution say, life, liberty and "pursuit of happiness".

I might even agree with you, dear Rotty, that Jim Bell is a bit
naive and shows a kind of outdated philosophy.  Jim Bell et al. 
entertain the delusion that human beings are intrinsically joyous 
rationnal animals that, most of the time, love life.  Therefore, for 
them, the AP scheme cannot lead to anything but a kind of 
laissez-faire world where everybody would be able to pursue happiness 
to the best of their abilities.  

OTOH, you believe that the natural tendency of AP would bring a
world as you describe it vocally here.  A world where the essence of
Mankind is not to be a rationnal animal, but an animal, period.  In
that vision, you believe that a bloodthirsty beast within us will
always take over.  Maybe you learned that truth from your *own* life
experience, I have no idea.  So, according to your logic, anybody
who doesn't like you will put a prize on your head, and probably look
up the necrology section of the paper everyday while gigling.  And
here, I have to conceed that you may be right.

After all, what philosophy ran the country since a hundred years?
Huhh?  So many peoples are so convinced of that that AP might very 
well turn against it's originator and further corruption.  Don't you 
think so?  

> if you think that a government is a tyranny, perhaps you are not
> aware of the tyranny of the irrationality of individual men.

That sentence should earn one of the top spot of the CP
top-ten-of-the-year list! ROTFL and L and L and L !

> it will "work" exactly as anonymous murdering now works.

Nobody is more deaf than the blind who does not want to smell...

> ah yes, exactly what we need. "enhanced anarchy". you and TCM really
> should get together and collaborate. I'm sure you'd come up with
> some fruitful conclusions.

Who knows?

JFA

 DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants;  physists, technologists and engineers.

 PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
 ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
 I reserve the right to post publicly any private e-mail sent to me.
 Unsollicited commercial e-mail will be proofread at US165 $/h
 Any sender of such material will be considered as to have ac-
 cepted the above mentionned terms.