From: minow@apple.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:49:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Java
Message-ID: <v02140b02addb7880650e@[17.202.12.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From Tim May's citation of Vladimir Z. Nuri:
>
>> maybe Java is all about a generation
>>gap in computing. hey!! the first language that the "older generation"
>>hates.

Better try another language, I'm quite a bit older than Tim, and like
Java very much. It's one of the best languages I've seen since Algol 60.
To learn the language, I'd recommend Java in 21 Days and, as a quick
desk reference, Java in a Nutshell.

Tim May writes
> I think
>the security problems are, first of all, no worse vis-a-vis the language
>itself than problems with any language.

They're better than most, as programmers can't "escape" from memory
and variable typing bounds.
>
>Until Java and
>associated programs and tools appeared, I was seriously thinking about
>getting a Pentium or Pentium Pro (shudder, even though I admire my former
>employer and current stock benefactor, Intel) and putting Linux on it.

If you're interested in Linux, you can get Linux for Power PC. Check out
http://www.mklinux.apple.com for details. Currently, it runs on the
first-generation Power PC's (6100, 7100, 8100).

>
>Perry has some valid points vis-a-vis the most naive uses of applets. Were
>I the security manager of Morgan Stanley, I would certainly not want
>traders downloading "kewl" applets and (possibly) causing Big Problems. So
>what else is new?

The use of signed classes makes this practical as "kewl," but unsigned,
applets should be safe unless the user makes a stupid decision regarding
default applet permissions (and ignoring the Trojan Horse problem). The
attraction to (for example) Morgan Stanley, is that it minimizes their
risk when employees must work outside the corporate firewall. For example,
an employee making an external sales call can dial into Morgan Stanley
and use an appropriately privileged signed applet to access private data
on the corporate server as well as files on the employee's portable computer).

>
>Java as a language and as a platform-independent implementation is an
>achievement.

It's also not owned by the evil Redmond empire and does not appear
to be owned by a hardware vendor (as, when compared with Intel,
Motorola, and the Intel clones, Sun is a minor player in the hardware
arena).

It will be very interesting to see what happens when ANSI/ISO/IEEE decide
that they must "standardize" the language. I'm currently reading
"The Hubble Wars" and don't hold out mush hope that the official standard
dies will actually improve the language.

>
>And in some ways a more important comparison is to Perl and TCL, along with
>more obscure languages like Python and REXX. The welter of Net-oriented
>languages shows signs of  being much-simplified by the wide adoption of
>Java. It will be interesting to watch the next several years of
>developments.
>
Rather than compare Java to Perl/TCL, try comparing it to Visual Basic,
C, C++, Fortran, and COBOL.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com