From: "Paul S. Penrod" <furballs@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 10:30:11 +0800
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Net and Terrorism.
In-Reply-To: <ae013a2a030210040b66@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9607041641.A26312-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 5:58 AM 7/4/96, attila wrote:
> 
> >        U.S. cash has eliminated a lot of Soviet weapons, including, I
> >believe
> >    some chemical.  however, keep in mind: the obsolete, and expensive to
> >    maintain, hardware predominated.  However, you will never be able to
> >buy out
> >    the religious terrorists --they are on a "mission."
> >
> >        The Western world faces far more threat from fundamentalist religious
> >    terrorists than it does from the Soviet Union, etc.
> >
> >        There is no cure for the "revolutionary" terrorists --just death
> >for their
> >    own brand of glory.  If we do not even print their obit, there is no glory!
> 
> I recall that Attila is one of several Mormons on the list, from a recent
> thread where I happened to mention Mormons as an example (and got comments,
> including a statement that "Mormon" is a slur).
> 
> Anyway, I should point out that Mormons (or Latter Day Saints, I guess) are
> spreading quickly around the world...all WITHOUT using "conversion by the
> sword," as some other well-known religions are wont to do.
> 
> Islam, notably, was known for this policy of conversion by the sword:
> entire national populations were given the choice of converting to Islam or
> being put to the sword. Most converted, naturally enough.
> 
> (cf. various histories, incl. Wright's "Sacred Rage.")
> 
> Islam is one of the religions teaching that "martyrs" go directly to
> Paradise/Heaven/Valhalla. A terrorist who explodes himself goes directly to
> sit at Allah's dinner table. His relatives, too, as I understand their
> beliefs, though the surviving relatives have to wait until they die to get
> this benefit.
> 
> Further, if a large Middle Eastern city, e.g., Tel Aviv or Haifa, were to
> be nuked by Believers, then all of the vaporized Muslims in the city would
> automatically be martyred, and would also go to Paradise. This makes it
> more "acceptable" to Believers to hit targets which may contain their own
> kind. (The famous "Kill them all and let God sort them out" line really
> does apply to many Muslims.)
> 
> (Two other religions come to mind as having similar beliefs about death in
> battle and afterlives: the Viking "berserkers" circa 800-1100 A.D. and the
> Japanese/Shinto suicide pilots in WW2. I'm sure there are other examples.)
> 
> Most other religions which have strong beliefs about an afterlife,
> including Mormons, Catholics, and other flavors of Christianity,
> nevertheless have not adopted this "martyr" concept. This may explain why
> few suicide bombings and suchlike come from these groups.
> 
> (There are exceptions. Many Christian sects believe that abortion is
> immoral and a grave sin, and that those who bomb or shoot up abortion
> clinics, a la John Salvi, are doing God's work and are ensured a place in
> Heaven. Personally, I expect to see more such "terrorist" acts in the
> coming decades, in the U.S.)
> 
> Calling a spade a spade, Islam is in some sense a "terrorist religion," in
> that physical force is seen by many Muslims as a legitimate mechanism of
> conversion. The wrinkle that those who die in the service of Allah go
> directly to sit at his side is of course a major incentivizing factor for
> more truck bombs, nerve gas attacks, and even nukings.
> 
> We should all be thankful that Mormons, as economically powerful and as
> well-organized as they are, steer far clear of this kind of recruiting and
> service to their beliefs.
> 
> (It's been 30 years since I've been in Salt Lake City, but I understand
> that strip clubs exist there--from reading certain news groups!--and that
> alcohol is not illegal there. This government tolerance of things inimical
> to the dominant religion would be unthinkable in, say, Mecca.)
> 
> There are of course other flavors of Islam, including arts-loving,
> peace-loving, and scholarly sorts. The propagation of science and math
> through the Dark Ages owes much to Arabic scholars, of course. Hence, we
> cannot blanketly condemn Islam.
> 
> However, for the sake of the discussion about terrorism, it's important to
> recognize that some significant fraction of Muslims believe these notions
> of martrydom and are willing to engage in horrific acts to accomplish
> certain ends.
> 
> (The Arab world is very poorly connected to the Net at this time. It'll be
> interesting to see what happens if and when they become well-connected,
> with PGP, remailers, information markets, etc.)
> 
> --Tim May
> 

Normally I would snip a bit to save bandwidth, but your comments, 
abreviated, would not be as effective.

My cousin is attached to one of the Ranger companies that went to 
Somalia, among other "friendly" vacation spots. He told me that just 
prior to moving out to rescue 6 men pinned down at 900 m by sniper fire, 
his CO instructed them that these snipers were muslim and considered it 
an honor to die for their religion. His last words to them were: "Tell 
them 'Go with God', then fire!"

As far as John was concerned it was a win-win situation...

...Paul

BTW, Attila, this was one of the companies Eric had to help pull out of 
the fire, created courtesy of the UN and the Pakistani CO for that 
attachment. But that's an interesting story for another time.