From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:32:16 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Net and Terrorism.
Message-ID: <199607050037.RAA29288@primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Addressed to: tcmay@got.net
              Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>

** Reply to note from tcmay@got.net 07/04/96  5:43pm -0700 
 
= I recall that Attila is one of several Mormons on the list, from a 
= recent thread where I happened to mention Mormons as an example (and 
= got comments, including a statement that "Mormon" is a slur). 
=  
        your memory is correct as to my membership: I am an active 
    Elder and member of the Quorum of High Priests. The official name 
    of the church since 1838 (eight years after founding) is "The
    Church of Christ and the Latter Day Saints" --therefore preference
    for 'LDS' or 'Saints.' 

        the use of "Mormon" to describe our members is obvious from the
    "Book of Mormon,"  so named by the fact the prophet Mormon compiled
    and/or authored much of the book, although the last prophet and
    custodian was Moroni (the gold statue on top of LDS Temples is of
    Moroni). 
  
= Anyway, I should point out that Mormons (or Latter Day Saints, I 
= guess) are spreading quickly around the world...all WITHOUT using 
= "conversion by the  sword," as some other well-known religions are 
= wont to do. 
=  
        our mission is simple: we only ask that you read the material 
    (preferably including the Book of Mormon) and privately (possibly
    including your family) to get on your knees and humbly and openly
    pray to God to tell you if the LDS church is the restored Church of 
    Christ himself, as established before his crucifixion, 

        unfortunately, we have been met by the sword, including in 
    Utah, which was _occupied_ by Federal troops for almost 50 years
    and more than one U.S. Army was sent by Washington to subjugate
    and/or exterminate us.
 
= Islam, notably, was known for this policy of conversion by the sword: 
= entire national populations were given the choice of converting to 
= Islam or being put to the sword. Most converted, naturally enough. 
=  
= (cf. various histories, incl. Wright's "Sacred Rage.") 
=  
= Islam is one of the religions teaching that "martyrs" go directly to 
= Paradise/Heaven/Valhalla. A terrorist who explodes himself goes 
= directly to sit at Allah's dinner table. [snip...]
= 
= Personally, I expect to see more such "terrorist" acts in the 
= coming decades, in the U.S.) 
= 
        given the insolvency of the U.S. government and the absurd 
    ratios of stock values in the NYSE and NASDAQ --most of it on 10%,
    or less, margin, a total economic collapse is inevitable 

        --not if!   *when?*

        all the "safeguards" of FDR's Glass Act, the SEC, etc. are just
    so many words. the monied class and the manipulators are no less 
    than the moneychangers Jesus expelled from the temple in Jerusalem.
 
= Calling a spade a spade, Islam is in some sense a "terrorist 
= religion," in that physical force is seen by many Muslims as a 
= legitimate mechanism of conversion. [snip...]
=  
= We should all be thankful that Mormons, as economically powerful and 
= as well-organized as they are, steer far clear of this kind of 
= recruiting and service to their beliefs. 
=
        technically, we "turn the other cheek" as W.W. Phelps did when 
    the mobs in Jackson, MO tarred one cheek --he turned to make it 
    easier to tar the other.
  
= (It's been 30 years since I've been in Salt Lake City, but I 
= understand that strip clubs exist there--from reading certain news 
= groups!--and that alcohol is not illegal there. This government 
= tolerance of things inimical to the dominant religion would be 
= unthinkable in, say, Mecca.) 
= 
	our basic attitude is very simple: we do not believe in the
    consumption of liquor, tea, coffee, and drugs including nicotine 
    and caffeine. all members are not perfect, and many must restore 
    their faith by repentance; however, we believe all non-members are 
    free to practice _any_ religion of their choice, including in 
    indulging in [legal] harmful substances.

        I, myself, live in Southern Utah in a rural high desert
    community of <150 families. I suspect it would be difficult to
    obtain a drink!
  
        The LDS position of war and conscientious objects is dual: if
    you profess to your Bishop you wish to be a conscientious objector
    (following the example in Alma), you will be supported; or, if you 
    wish to be called to duty (as the striplings of Helaman who had
    not covenented to not raise arms). you will be supported, 

        as this example from the Discourses of Brigham Young:
  
	"When we were right in the midst of Indians, who were said to 
	be hostile, five hundred men were called to go to Mexico to 
	fight the Mexicans, and, said Mr. Benton -- 'If you do not send 
        them we will cover you up, and there will be no more of you.' 

	"...The boys in that battalion performed their duty faithfully. 
        I never think of that little company of men without the
        next thoughts being, "God bless them for ever and for ever." 
        All this we did to prove to the Government that we were 
        loyal.
        
        "...Thomas H. Benton, ...obtained the requisition to call for
        that battalion, and, in case of non-compliance with that
        requisition, to call on the militia of Missouri and Iowa, and
        other states, ...to destroy [us].  

        "This same Mr. Benton said to the President of the United
        States, in the presence of some other persons, 

            'Sir, they are a pestilential race, and ought to
                 become extinct.'"  

        [Discourses of Brigham Young 10:106] 
  
= There are of course other flavors of Islam, including arts-loving, 
= peace-loving, and scholarly sorts. The propagation of science and 
= math through the Dark Ages owes much to Arabic scholars, of course. 
= Hence, we cannot blanketly condemn Islam. 
=  
= However, for the sake of the discussion about terrorism, it's 
= important to recognize that some significant fraction of Muslims 
= believe these notions of martyrdom and are willing to engage in 
= horrific acts to accomplish certain ends. 
=  
= (The Arab world is very poorly connected to the Net at this time. 
= It'll be interesting to see what happens if and when they become 
= well-connected, with PGP, remailers, information markets, etc.) 
= 
        currently, the Arabs are poorly connected to the Internet due 
    to the fear of their despotic rulers that they will learn Western 
    ways, including democracy  --and, spread information and democracy 
    to rise against these leaders.  In Saudi Arabia, any usage of the 
    InterNet goes thru the official state provided (a clear case for a 
    satellite link).  Of course, it is illegal to own weird satellite 
    equipment.

        Attila  


960704:2359



--
Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives!