From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 03:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated.
In-Reply-To: <v02120d02ae332cab9cff@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960811133518.3067A-100000@offshore>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim:
>(I have respect for what Vince did, by actually moving to the Caribbean and
>setting up a data haven/offshore ISP business. 

Thanks.

>However, just as we discuss
>the situation about remailers going down, or monitoring the cleartext, or
>blocking certain addresses, so too should we discuss what Vince is choosing
>to do. Maybe he is ultimately right, maybe not. I'm including this preface
>just so no one thinks I'm trying to start a feud. No way.)

Sure.  There are things to figure out, lessons to learn, ...

>>This is a fraud by taxbomber.  He is totally involved with selling fake
>>passports.  He calls them "camouflage passports" and they have names like
>
>"What is truth?" Many of the things customers of a data haven are likely to
>be doing are "fraudulent" or "illegal" in some jurisdictions....I'm sure I
>don't have to spend effort here citing examples from religious, medical,
>and business domains.

The fraud I meant was his saying that he is not selling fake passports in
his "fee sorry for me I got cut off" post.  He was selling fake passports. 

>Selling fake passports seems not to be something Vince ought to even be
>paying attention to. Granted, pressure from outside states may put pressure
>on Vince, but this actually confirms my worst (OK, _nearly_ my worst)
>suspicions about the viability of such data havens.

Remember regulatory arbitrage.  The more jurisdictions on the Intenet,
the better for users.  That some things are not permitted in Anguilla
does not mean it is not a viable jurisdiction for some other things.
For example, tax free corporations, IPOs over the Internet, gambling
(Anguilla should have bingo on the Internet by the end of next month).

Vince
>My lawyer called me up and told me that fake passports are illegal in
>Anguilla and that I should pull this guy immediately.  I did. It is our
>policy to not permit anything on our servers that is illegal in Anguilla.
>My lawyer is where I get the definition of "illegal in Anguilla".

Tim:
>Instead of "pulling" this guy, did you first send a copy of your lawyer's
>letter to you to this guy, and advise him that he should remove just this
>one specific item, the allegedly illegal British Honduras passports?

After my lawyer called I disabled the web access.  I believe this is a big
part of his business, and it really just makes more sense for him to use
another provider than to remove it.

>Tim:
>Then I suggest you carefully provide a full copy of what you consider to be
>illegal to all subscribers.

Will do.  More than just leggality, what I consider acceptable.
This will show up as  http://online.offshore.com.ai/rules.html

>I have some questions, though. Would bomb-making instructions be legal or
>illegal, acceptable or not acceptable on your system? How about "Kill the
>Queen" screeds? And so on.

Not acceptable.  This is not the market I am after.  I don't see the
profit in it.  

>If you "pull" the entire account of a business when the Governor-General,
>or His Royal Excellency--or whomever it is that runs Anguilla--applies
>pressure....well, you won't have much of a real data haven, now will you?

I may not have your idea of a data haven.  But there are things, 
like no-taxes, where Anugilla has stood up to the US pressure for years.

>>He also suggested opening up bank accounts with these fake passports 
>> (encouraging fraud).
>
>On this last point, how is this "encouraging fraud"?

If the laws of a country say it is fraud to open a bank account with 
a fake passport, then encouraging someone to do so is encouraging
fraud.  Check with your lawyer and see if you can open up a bank
account with a fake passport.  If I were making the laws I would
permit numbered accounts etc, so there was no interest in fake passports
for bank accounts.

>Then they deny the loan.

One use of fake ID is to open up loans or credit cards under fake names, 
get some money, and then toss the fake ID and never pay, and never be found.
You would agree that is fraud?

Tim:
>I should remind readers that it is legal
>to sell such passports in the U.S....somewhere I have one that says "This
>document not good for travel in the People's Republics of Berkeley, Santa
>Monica, and Madison," or somesuch.

Regulatory arbitrage is a fun thing.  If you want to do something that
is not OK in Anguilla, but is in the US, then you should do it in the US.

    --  Vince

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vincent Cate   vince@offshore.com.ai  http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/
Offshore Information Services         http://www.offshore.com.ai/