From: "Greg Kucharo" <sophi@best.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:19:00 +0800
To: <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anguilla...etc.
Message-ID: <199608160154.SAA20349@dns2.noc.best.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I guess the point I was trying to make all along is this; Is a data haven
going to be a security through obscurity operation?  This is what the Swiss
have with secret bank accounts, etc.  Or will it be an operation where the
operator of the system lets whatever on, and hopes he won't get prosecuted.
In Island in the Net, the haven were physical.  The authorities got to them
eventually.  Vince's system is restricted by physical laws.  There will
always be a finite array of information he can present without putting the
whole operation on the line.
  Is he still a data haven then?  I believe so.  But through creative
diplomacy he could balance the powers that bind him.  How well he or anyone
else does this is the key to the range of information presented.

----------
> From: Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Anguilla...etc.
> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 9:07 PM
> 
> At 2:21 AM 8/14/96, Greg Kucharo wrote:
> >  While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the
> >authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble
> >purposes.  Check that, obvious noble purposes.  While most on this list
> >would agree that free flow of information is noble we have all seen that
> >this is otherwise with people in power.  As I stated in my last post,
the
> >Swiss have maintained thier "haven" for many years by playing both
sides.
> >In accomodating everyone they avoid harassment.
> >   This way the Swiss maintain a good system and live to fight another
day.
> 
> Let me be clear that I am not talking about "noble motives." In the sense
> of somone sacrificing himself for the good of the herd, blah blah.
> 
> Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is,
what
> a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot
reasonably
> expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out
obvious
> deficiencies.
> 
> For "data havens," we have very few examples, compared to operational
> remailers. We have the fictional form in Bruce Sterling's "Islands in the
> Net," some of whose plot twists have some parallels to the current
Anguilla
> situation. Another is the form described in Ross Anderson's "Eternity
> Service."
> 
> What might we expect of a true data haven? I've tried to describe several
> of the attributes in my earlier posts, mainly by asking questions about
> specific examples (bomb-building instructions, "Kill the monarchy"
screeds,
> etc.).
> 
> Interestingly, with several of these examples, Vince has said that he is
> not interested in having this kind of material on his site. His
invitation
> for Multi-Level Marketers to avoid U.S. and other laws by locating on his
> service has now been withdrawn, from his latest comments. (To the person
> who sent me mail explaining that MLM schemes are not illegal in the U.S.,
> indeed, some are legal and some are not. I said as much. And for those
> which are legal in the U.S. or France or wherever, they would hardly have
> any need to use Vince's service, would they? I surmised from his
invitation
> that he was encouraging MLM/pyramid scheme operators to avoid their
> parochial fraud laws and use the services in Anguilla.)
> 
> I plan to do more looking at just who is left, who is using Offshore
> Information and what kinds of services they are offering. Not to harass
> Vince, of course, but to better look at the envelope of what is
considered
> OK and what is not.
> 
> If i find that all the "juicy" stuff is gone and all that is left is
> booking sailing cruises around the Carribbean, I'll hardly call it a
"data
> haven." Which is not to say it's not still a useful and profitable
business
> for Vince, just that it has no Cypherpunk relevance.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't
allowed.
>
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
> Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."
> 
> 
>