From: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The futility of trying to "tag" ammunition
Message-ID: <ae2bdb75040210042746@[205.199.118.202]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:38 AM 8/5/96, Sean Sutherland wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Hallam-Baker Wrote --
>> Date:          Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:20:20 -0400
>
>> I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to
>> the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the
>> US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge
>> to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be
>> required to record each individual purchase. That at least
>> was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane.
>
>There's four major problems with this.  First off, a large number of

Actually, there are so many problems with this that I dismissed Phill's
"plan" out of hand. But since others are weighing in on it, I might as
well, too.

It has little CP relevance, except that it parallels other seemingly well
though-out proposals which crumble when some common sense analysis is used.


The key point is this:

A billion rounds of ammunition already out in the U.S. +

Perps typically fire fewer than 5 rounds in committing their crimes  +

Incredible logistical problems in tagging and tracking shells  =

An idea shot down.

>guns used in homicides are revolvers or derringers (anyone got the
>numbers?).  These guns don't spit out the shells.  So, it would be

Most older guns in the hands of street punks are revolvers, though this is
not necessarily where handgun homicides mostly come from. Those are "home
shootings"--a man kills his wife, a woman kills her husband, a brother
shoots a brother, etc. Most of these are done with guns that are handy and
that have been in the family/house for a long time....most are, thus,
revolvers.

(The 1911 .45 is moderately common, but not nearly so much so as old .38s
and even .22s.)

In any case, Phill's proposal would collapse for this situation. First, the
guns are very old and the ammo would not be the new "tagged cases." (In
most cases, a old "box of shells." Most home owners of guns never fire
practice rounds and tend to have a few boxes at most of shells, which they
keep for many, many years.)

And in most home killings, it becomes clear real fast who did the shooting.
And, as Sean notes, these revolvers will not eject the shells.

It is marginally possible that spent shells could be identified when fired
from semi-automatics, of course. Other factors to consider, though:

1. The vast amount of ammo already out there. Given that perps typically
fire only a handful in their criminal career, not hard to just use older
ammo.

(The Sternlight-favored argument might be invoked here: "Ah, but criminals
are too stupid to do this, and so it will help." I disagree. Most street
punks would understand the principal. Just as they seek out "clean" guns,
they surely would not load their carry guns with 9mm ammo bought and
"registered" under their own names.

2. Target shooters consume the vast majority of rounds. (This is why
foolish proposals by Moynihan to "force" ammo to be sold for, say, $5 a
round, is ineffectual for the intended purpose: the perp loading his .357
or 9mm will hardly be deterred by a $30 price, even assuming he would buy
in a store at these prices.) (Think of the black market supply: my several
thousand rounds of 9mm, .45, .223, etc., would be worth $15,000 or more at
"Moynihan prices. The Feds could try to outlaw all ammo transfers between
individuals...left as an exercise as to how effective this could ever be,
and whether juries would send people off to the pen for the crime of
selling some .45 shells.)

3. Reloaders. As others have noted, there is an essentially inexhaustible
supply of reloaded shells.

4. The vast amound of ammo already out there. Crates and crates and crates
of surplus ammo in all sorts of calibers, entire container ships of ammo
coming to the U.S. (e.g, I just got my UPS delivery of 850 rounds of a
Czech brand, Sellior and Bellot, and my 1000 rounds of Italian Fiocchi are
due any day...multiply this by 100,000.

5. Stockpiling. Don't forget the "law of unintended consequences." The
biggest gun boom in history came when the Feds cracked down on gun
purchases. California gun stores were crowded for months. (Ditto for
high-capacity magazines: in the months of "warning" that people had,
factories cranked up production, customers stockpiled, and there was a
sudden surge of interest in getting that previously-obscure 3-round mag for
one's Glocks! :-})

>utterly useless to do so.  The second problem is the number of shells
>expelled in the US every day.  I doubt there's enough room on the
>butt end of a shell to print that number (it couldn't be printed on
>the sides, as this would screw up the fit of the shell, and possibly
>weaken it).  And, it'd be almost impossible getting gun manufacturers to

6. There isn't enough room. The shell I have in my hand barely has enough
room to print "FEDERAL 45 AUTO". A unique numbering of the total ammo
sales, even by boxes and not individual cases, would need a 9-12 characters
(and would likely run out in a few year--12-14 characters would be needed).
Actually, this is the "most solvable" of the problems...the others are the
real killers.

>pay for the equiptment that it would take to emprint serial numbers.
>The third number is that cartridges


>are recycled.  Aside from reloading your own, there's a large number
>of people that sweep up brass from gun ranges to reload themselves.

>The idea that someone swept up the brass could get almost anyone off.

7. There's this...and there's the possibility that one could implicate
_others_. For example, pick up a few empty shells at the range. I imagine
there might be some souvenir value in buying a "This shell was fired by
Dianne Feinstein." (For the uniniated, at the same time DiFi was railing
against the public's ownership of guns, she was carrying one in her purse.)

This gets back to the "chain of evidence" point we so often mention.

>The final problem is the paperwork.  Cops today can barly keep up
>with the paperwork involved with the Brady Bill.  Could you imagine
>if they had to keep track of AMMO purchases?

8. Indeed, it would inflate ammo prices too much.

(Given that people like me have thousands of rounds, the ability to reload,
and would be happy to undercut the local K-Mart's price.)

>The NRA, I'm sorry to say, has screwed up royally.  It's about time
>that they regroup, or else they fall.
>

Indeed, I refused to renew my membership because of their wishy-washyness
on basic issues. In my opinion, spending the "Life Member" fees on a Dillon
reloading press is a better investment.


--Tim May

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