From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: is there no end to AP & Creative Wiretap Arguments?
Message-ID: <v02130504ae85133a7ab2@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>        after months of patient explanations to Jim Bell and
>    sympathizers, going over the same points in 31 flavours,
>    the same arguments of what I would call "respectable" anarchy
>    (well stated by Tim May) rather than the "world at war" anarchy of
>    Jim Bell --  where are we?!?
>
>        I read Jim's first "manifesto" at least 18 months ago; and, the
>    "refined manifsto" less than a month ago.  I have yet to see an
>    application of civilization which brings AP society up to even the
>    level of Tombstone AZ just prior to the OK Corral.

How about as a means of coercing war criminals ethnic purgers, as those in
Bosnia/Serbia, to turn themselves in to proper tribunals for judging.
Having AP bettors wager $100,000s on your untimely retirement, unless you
turn yourself in, could induce one to consider conventional justice.

I find it appalling the duplicity of world government leaders which talk
frequently of world justice but are only prepared to expend real effort to
catch the few terrorists attacking their citizens, while those who commit
genocide on other are given half-hearted slaps of the hand and told not to
sin again, or less through government inaction.

>
>        Jim's theories all hinge on betting pools which supposedly can
>    be run like the lottery where the poor can share a ticket
>    (egalitarian, of course), anonyminity (which as an argument is
>    appropriate, but what for in a selfish immoral act?),  and a
>    justice is served attitude, even if there are mistakes.

Just think of it as a sportsbook with different games and players.  You
wouldn't accuse bettors of trying to influence the outcome a football game
would you?  :-)

>
>        the whole concept of AP does not even support the concept of
>    "justice is expeditiously served!"   it is a resort to the manners
>    of dogs and monkeys sitting at the same table --a spiteful,
>    arrogant player can move the betting pools to assassinate anyone.
>
>        In other words, are we planning to use James Caan as the lead
>    runner in "Roller Ball"  --except this time we're playing with a
>    "live" society for which we hold in common the utmost contempt?
>
>        are we trying to return to the bread and circus mentality of
>    Rome on its deathbed and slide to subjecation by Attila the Hun
>    who was actually stopped from sacking Rome after the Pope so
>    impressed him with his regal robes....  deciding  tribute from an
>    established dictatorship was more reliable?  --and less costly?!?
>

No, I see it as another possible means of encouraging justice in a world
where the largest criminals are often beyond the reach of the world
community due to 'political complications'.

>        has anyone seen a single social moral fiber in Jim's often
>    passionate arguments for AP, or even in the "results" in a society
>    which will never breed another leader: religious, secular, or even
>    political?
>
>        does AP permit anything except slaves and drones which can
>    just as easily be replaced by robots?  maybe noone will miss news
>    reports (as 'canned' as they are), or movies which entertain or
>    provoke?  or ice cream sundaes at the soda fountain?
>
>        ...and the disappearance of grocers, and doctors, and dentists
>    bringing forth a new age of subsistence farming and hunting for
>    the lucky few who might live to a readjusted live expectancy point
>    of 30 yrs, burning books and computer printouts for cooking and
>    warmth.
>
>        why have books or knowledge when there is noone willing to
>    accept the responsibility of educating your children, the instructor
>    waiting for the parent of Dumb Suzy to avenge her failing grade?
>    after all, Suzy does not need to read, not even well enough to
>    take the test for a driver's license --there is no infrastructure;
>    no need to learn math well enough to possibly balance a checkbook
>    --after all, there are no banks...

I think AP, or its ilk, may be a likely outcome in a would unable or
unwilling to apply justice even-handedly no matter what a person's station.
It's a popular rebellion to encourage the 'legal' world justice system to
have more backbone and care less about politics or risk being marginalized.

>        "Assassination Politics" is nothing more than a childish game
>    which 'legalizes' killing anyone you wish.  are AP's proponents so
>    naive they believe the bookies will not have any public person
>    assassinated by rigging the pools for their own profit?

Mathematically verifiable safeguards would need be developed so that this
is minimized or eliminated as a possibility before any sportsbooks, what
ever the sport, operate.  This is a function the community of cypherpunks
and professional crypto and security people should serve.

>remember, law enforcement ceased with the return of 'law of the jungle'
>anarchy.

All human rights are Naturally derived as are the 'Laws of the Jungle'.
Governments instituted among men should derive their rights from the
soverignty of its citizens.  Unfortunately, many countries choose to ignore
this.  AP should serve an occassionally competitive system to keep the
'duly consistuted' system on its toes lest those in authority reap the law
of the jungle.





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