cryptoanarchy.wiki

Arise, you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences!

1996-10-03 - [FACTS] Mountain Meadows Massacre

Header Data

From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
To: moroni@scranton.com>
Message Hash: 574b97fa13058cfb564c3a3ae65247b21cdec242608314c795d7794e0a47375c
Message ID: <199610030935.DAA24791@infowest.com>
Reply To: N/A
UTC Datetime: 1996-10-03 12:21:19 UTC
Raw Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 20:21:19 +0800

Raw message

From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 20:21:19 +0800
To: moroni@scranton.com>
Subject: [FACTS] Mountain Meadows Massacre
Message-ID: <199610030935.DAA24791@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AFTER THIS POST, ALL RELIGION MUST GO OFF THE LIST! see banner below

First, in re: Dimitri's scurrilous attack:

    to paraphrase Winston Churchill...

        Dimitri: "attila, you are drunk!"
        Attila: "ah, Dimitri, you are ignorant, 
                    but I shall be sober in the morning!"

        I have met some pretty ignorant and some pretty violent men in
my life; despite your alledged education, you are a social 
abomination, an uncivilized boar, rooting in the gardens of
civilization, snorting your pleasure while distorting facts and 
reason.  You obviously fattened too long at the table of eminent
Russian diplomats like Kruschev, or even the brooding Brezenev.
If you must practice barbarism, go ahead --but go home. Life is
short enough without a constant stream of filth and errors from
an obviously small, illiterate, and undisciplined mind.

Now, concerning the completely ignorant, erroneus, and  slanderous
comment of Dimitri, the facts will follow the usual disclaimer:

    ***************************************************************
        I am neither an authority of nor a representative of "The Church
    of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints" of which our current
    living Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, is the sole authority
    to this world.  I do not speak for the Church, nor am I a recognized
    historian and/or spokesman for the Church.  Any opinions stated
    herein are my viewpoints as discerned from my studies of religion,
    in particular the historical aspect of the Church, and I accept all
    responsibilty for same.
    ******************************************************************* 
    If some of the list wish to either ask questions RESPONSIBLY or
    conduct a shared learning experience of the Mormon religious,
    community, and work ethic, please drop me a personal note, and
    I will both answer reasonable questions, and serve as moderator
    of a list if there is sufficient interest.  I think the libertarian faction 
    in particular might be both surprised and *stunned* by many of 
    the actual conditions in Utah versus preconceived views.
    *******************************************************************

now, back to our regularly scheduled programming <g>

the following is a compilation of information which is as 
reasonable a representation of the foul deed as I could assemble.

<html><head><title> Mountain Meadows Summary </title></head></html>
<body bgcolor="#0070c0" text=ffffff link=ff0000 vlink=00ffff alink=ff0000>

Regardless of whatever the facts, fears, and motives; under pressure
from the Paiute Indians, who had already surrounded the wagons, Mountain 
Meadows remains as the sole instance of an essentially unprovoked 
attack which possibly may have been assisted by a few Mormons; Mormons
who rarely even raised arms to defend themselves, and who trusted in 
the Lord to protect and preserve them. <p>

the wagon train in question at Mountain Meadows, which is
about 10-15 miles south of Enterprise and 40 miles northwest of
St. George on the Spanish Trail was beseiged by the Paiute Indians 
who had tolerated the wagon trains for many years.  However, this
train was insufficiently provisioned and they plundered both the 
Indians and the few settlers in the region for provisions. With at 
least 50 armed and mounted men, they were a significant force 
in the region at that time.

The Paiutes called on the local Mormons to help destroy them, 
or face attack from the Indians themselves.  Perceiving the 
wagon train as part of the general threat to their community, 
John D. Lee alledgedly lured them from their wagon train and 
the Paiute murdered all but a few of the children.<p>

However, given the continued persecution of the Saints for almost
thirty years, persecution which even followed them to vast empty lands
of the Utah Desert, the belief the wagon train was a group of prior
persecutors from Missouri, and the imminent presence of a full United 
States Army to occupy Utah, there was substantial and justifiable fear 
among Lee and his fellow settlers.<p>

The true facts of John D. Lee's actual involvement in the Massacre will
never be known.  There is no positive indication that anyone other than
Lee was involved; the community he founded immediately shunned him, 
even to the point of threats and ostracizing his children. Given John D.
Lee's fervor, he may have made the decision himself, therefore assuming 
the responsibility in the eye of a very biased federal territorial judge 
sent from Washington to enforce new federal laws which encompassed
confiscation of Mormon property and dissolving the church. Despite 
Lee's denials, and no material witnesses of fact. John D. Lee was tried
a second time and executed more than ten years after the incident. <p>

It is recorded that Jon D. Lee walked to his execution at Mountain
Meadows after his bitter final declaration, saying to his executioners:
<p>

    "...aim for the heart, boys.  Don't sully the flesh."<p>

Unfortunately, the Mountain Meadows is always one of the first items 
printed; in this case, even of questionable historical accuracy, after 
the usual overstated references to polygamy without regard for the 
economic and social necessity of the extended families in a society
with so many more widowed and unmarried women then there were men, 
to assemble complete family units. <p>  

    Polygamy, for instance,  existed in the Old Testament times,
basically for the same reasons, and with basically similar rules. <p>

  John D. Lee Biography  <br>
  John D. Lee - Last Words  <br>

</body></html>

    NOW, LET'S KEEP THIS OFF THE LIST.  join the newsgroup
alt.religion.mormon if you wish to argue; it has been "sniper's
alley" ever since its founding.

    ****************************************************************************
-.> Ryan Russell/SYBASE writes:
-.>
-.> > I guess that depends on your definition of liberty.  The Mormons 
- > > originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, 
- > > and have freedom from persecution.  I suppose one could extend that 
- > > to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant 
- > > with their beliefs.  Should that include freedom from interferance from
- > > folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though 
- > > you're not presently effected?

-.On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
-.> 
-.> It's worth noting that one of Utah mormons favorite pastimes was to ambush
-.> the settlers heading for California, kill them all, and take their property
-.> However the mormons were dealt with much less severely than the
-.> local Indians who tried the same tricks. Pity.
-.> 

on 10/02/96 at 10:28 PM, "Paul S. Penrod" <furballs@netcom.com> said:

-.Ah yes, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I was wondering when you might  trot
-.that little bit of revisionist history out for display. BTW, its  your
-.revison of history, not the way it was recorded by many other  sources,
-.including first hand accounts by people who had witnessed the  whole affair
-.and recorded it in their journals, some of which made it to  the National
-.Archives and was researched almost 8 years ago in order to  raise a monument
-.to those mem and women who were felled there courtesy of  a miscommunication,
-.a late communication and the US Calvary.

-.You might want to read a *real* historical account of what actually  happened
-.before sounding off and leading the rest of us to believe you  are a graduate
-.of the Leon Panneta Fact Reporting School of Spin Doctoring.

-....Paul



--
  "I don't make jokes. 
    I just watch the government and report the facts."
        --Will Rogers

Thread