From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 05:42:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The attitude of US peoples toward govt  WAS: [AP stuff] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199610041616.LAA01460@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jean-Francois Avon asked me to forward this to the list. It is part of 
a conversation that He and I had last week. 

The Crypto Relevance if any is in the attitudes we are discussing, and 
in the the last couple paragraphs of Mr. Avon's writing.

Forwarded message:
> From jf_avon@citenet.net Fri Sep 27 23:59:05 1996
> Message-Id: <9609280545.AB01676@cti02.citenet.net>
> Comments: Authenticated sender is <jf_avon@pop.citenet.net>
> From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
> Organization: JFA Technologies, Montreal, QC, Canada
> To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:45:30 -0500
> Subject: The attitude of US peoples toward govt  WAS: [AP stuff]
> Priority: normal
> X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.32)
> 
> On 27 Sep 96 at 20:01, snow wrote:
> > When I talked about driving for 48 hours straight, I was trying to
> > impart an idea that many midwestern people are rasied with, the
> > total VASTNESS of the world. We (midwesterners, and some of the
> > westerners, and a lot of older people (in their 60's & 70's)
> > honestly believe deep down inside that this country is too vast to
> > effectively control that the government simply CAN'T do it. They
> > can't enforce any control they wish to have with the army, because
> > WE have guns, and a lot of us are ex-army (a little older, a
> > little slower, a HELL of a lot more devious and a lot less
> > impetuious<sp>). We simply don't accept the fact that any one CAN
> > control us.
> 
> This might be why I liked NM, and AZ and TX.  I can understand the 
> feeling you describe as you can barely escape it while visiting the 
> place.  I suppose our canadian politicians also understood that: c.f. 
> Bill C-68 :(
> 
> > Anyway, [the person's] point was that [some type of software] took
> > control and decesions out of peoples hands, and that is why it was
> > a market sucess. This I see as a European disease, the looking to
> > government & the church for the solutions to every day problems.
> 
> That is the feudalist attitude and philosophy.  Absolutely
> disgusting.  Although we have, here in Quebec, french roots and
> civil laws based on the Napoleon Code (Common Law everywhere in
> Canada except in QC), the population have a very american way of
> seeing life. Every time I have political discussion with French from
> France, the feudal mentality always surfaces up and I always have
> problems with them.  They have a hierarchy-worshiping attitude,
> coupled with an abdication of the power of their own reason (at the
> individual level).  In short, they are brought-up to become yes-men. 
> It litterally gives me an uncomfortable feeling in my guts. 
> Disgusting.
> 
> > The original Colonists didn't have that attitude (well, they did to
> > some degree, but not the people on the edges) In fact the attitude
> > really didn't develop fully in this country until the 1920's, and
> > still hasn't caught on everywhere.
> 
> Roosevelt and his New Deal...  I got the chance to find a magazine
> who explained how the Federal Reserve was created.  Politicians
> sneaking into trains as "duck hunters", grand political socialistic
> schemes sprung on peoples in secret, etc.  The magazine did not say
> that but I am leaning on the Objectivist side and I tend to read
> what *is* written...
> 
> > politicians started paying for votes with government largess
> 
> As a 70 years old englishmen, ex-company managing president & very
> friend of mine once said: Everyday, they buy us with our own money...
> 
> > These two attitudes are pretty diametrically opposed, but coupled
> > it with a school system that doesn't encourage extra-curriculer
> > thought, and you have some pretty incosistent people. 
> 
> Unfortunately, you are absolutely right.
> 
> 
> [slight topic drift...] I was wondering lately...  Words have a lot
> of power.  They are the building blocks we use to materialize
> concepts.  Think about the word "Government".  You would think of it
> as a body that governs.  But the american peoples think the
> government ought to be a body that acts under a mandate to
> administrate and oversee certain things.  
> 
> The very word "govt" seems to (conceptually) almost "justify" the
> actions of present govts, while any other word (like, for example,
> "overseers", "Mandated", etc) would stress out that they are under 
> *our* orders (and nowadays, exceeding their mandate).
> 
> Maybe we should start using a new word to describe *exactly" what it
> is that they ought to be doing.  Doing so would also stress out 
> *exactly* what they are pulling on us...   
> 
> Comments?
> 
> jfa
> 
> Please e-mail me directly since I am not on cypherpunks anymore.  
> Thanks.
> Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds (Montreal) QC Canada
>  DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee
>     Finest Limoges porcelain and crystal
>  JFA Technologies, R&D consultants
>     physicists and engineers, LabView programing
> PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
> ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
> ID# 5B51964D : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C 

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com