From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Missionaries (was: "Mormon Asshole?" re: GAK)
Message-ID: <199610052255.PAA08964@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A29441@idiom.com>, on 10/04/96 
>   at 12:36 PM, "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com> said:
>
>^^.Attilla Says:
>
>^^.>but what inflames the anti-mormon passions the most is the 
>^^.>paid clergy of other organized religions whose employment is 
>^^.>the paid ministry to their flock.  Mormons threaten their jobs;  
>^^.>the mormons have no paid ministry; it is all part of our 
>^^.>"callings" to do the Lord's work.
>
>^^.Well, speaking as one who has occasionally been called anti-mormon (although,
>^^.I'm *really* not that specific!) The only time I feel any anti-mormon
>^^."passion" is when I want to throttle one of your missionaries.  I like
>^^.sleeping in, and being awakened by a kid who wants me to join a religion is
>^^.really offensive.
>^^.
>        come, come, John...   you would deny those bright, eager faces
>    of our missionaries, who spent several years earning the money to be
>    able to support themselves on a two year mission?
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV)

Bright, eager faces.. Full of the smug self-delusion that they know 
how the universe came to be, and that they have a duty to convince 
others of their Truth.  I've seen the same look on the faces of 
Scientologists.

And, BTW, I couldn't care less how these little twits finance their
activities,  or how fervent their belief may be that what they're
doing is for my own good.  It's an intrusion on my privacy, and I
find it offensive!  Is that really so hard to understand?

>        and, they do not "ask" you to join our religion;  they are only
>    offering you the chance to "investigate" our religion; your decision to
>    join is based solely on your willingness to pray, by yourself, 
>    asking the Lord if joining the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter
>    Day Saints is the _right_ thing to do, a true Church of Jesus and
>    the Lord.   

Ask, hell!  They knock on my door, wake me up, and offend me in a
manner very similar to spamming.  They intrude on my property, to
try to sell me a line of unmitigated bullshit.  Torquemada, Loyola,
the Czars, and the "Jews For Jesus" didn't make Christians out of
my family, and the continuous proselytizing by every little upstart
sect that tags itself as Christian is pretty damn irritating.

Jews are Jews.  We're not converting. Go cope!

If any person ever tries to covert *you*, then you are fully entitled
to attempt the same patronizing act in retaliation, to that one
person. Kids going door-to-door to offer chances to investigate
their religion are out of line, and when they come to my door, they
will get said door slammed in their face, be they Mormon, Scientologist,
Lubbavitcher, or any other cult.

>        It is not for our missionaries to ask you to join the Church; 
>    they are only to assist you in your _investigation_ of our Church.
>    Don't worry, I realize some overreach their mission authority with
>    their enthusiasm.  

"Mission Authority"?  I'm sure I've never heard the term before.

>        However, if you are ever pushed by a missionary, send his/her 
>    name to me and I will pass the information along to the mission 
>    leadership that they might pause and potentially dampen his/her 
>    fire a little bit.  it happens, as to be expected.  

Shall I try to dig up a directory of all of your little boys who
are of age to go out on a mission to irritate the not-yet-converted?
If you have a master list of people that your church should leave
the hell alone, where do I apply?

>        BTW, the mission leaders are adult couples who volunteer for 
>    3 years. we had a man in our ward who was close to 70 accept a 
>    calling with his wife to oversee land acquistion and construction 
>    all over the Far East --he was out there almost 10 years -- he and 
>    his wife had 11 children and he is now close to 90 --still going 
>    (falls asleep in his chair after dinner....).

There is a term for this kind of activity.  It's called aiding and abetting.

Oh, and FYI: I grew up in southeast Asia.  I've some of your
missionaries at work, trying to convert Balinese Hindus to Mormonism.
This is a singularly barbaric act. Hindu Bali is a beautiful, peaceful
world-view, and your kids go out to pollute these wonderful people's
minds with a poisonous concept like Original Sin.  Why can't you
just let them be happy?

>       please just remember these kids are filled with their youthful 
>    zeal and the exuberance of their mission.  they are some of our 
>    best kids, and they are giving two years (10% of their life to date)
>    for their service.  

Wrong.  Your *best* kids don't take it upon themselves to irritate
their neighbors.

> 		I really regret that I did not go on a mission at
>    19 --interrupting college for 2 years.   Harvard had no provision
>    for it, and I surrendered my chance over 37 years ago. 

Oooooooh! You went to Harvard!  Maybe that explains some of your
patronizing attitude.  That school has the rather nasty belief that
its graduates have a divine right to order others about.

Any school that would grant tenure to a fascist like Galbraith, or
to a latter-day Machiavelli like Kissinger, is not an institution
I can respect.

And as for your own desire to go on a mission, think of this exchange
as the reaming you would get if you had come knocking on my father's
door.

>      our Articles of Faith include the missions.  our first 
>   missionaries covered amazing distances in the mud, and generally on
>    foot starting in 1830, the year the Church was founded, covering 
>    much of the Eastern U.S. and Canada plus very rewarding missions 
>    to England, Europe, Scandinavia, and even to Australia/NZ/Tahiti in 
>    the first 15 years.  there is an enormous population of LSD members
>    in the Solomon Island area today.

Your articles of faith are completely irrelevant to me. I don't
care if a proselytute accosts me because he's personally seen the
burning bush, or because his lucky astrology mood ring advised him
to.  The significant fact is the act of intrusion itself, not the
motivation.

>        and we belief that everyone should be permitted to practice
>    religion in any way they choose (or not choose), only asking that 
>    we be shown the same consideration.  we will even fight to grant
>    you that right!  or give you, without cost, the use of our chapels
>    if you do not have your own.  For instance, the Catholic Church
>    managed to start their congregations in Utah by using our chapels
>    in the 1850s.

Well, that's mighty white of you!  Of course, no one ever asked
for your permission, so your position on permitting other religions
is irrelevant.

BTW, I don't know if you're aware of how close the Mormons came to
being banned from the state of Israel altogether, due to the outrage
of the Hasidim over your missionaries' obnoxious habit of luring
Jewish children into a goy shul.  You may also be unaware of the
fact that when a Jewish child has been polluted in such a manner,
their fathers are obliged to have them ritually de-loused in a
not-very-inexpensive process!

Of course, you have the right to speak your mind, and even to try
to convince a Jew to believe in the Mormon faith.  Just don't be
surprised when a scion of a race that has been viciously persecuted
for its refusal to convert to the religious fad of the day tells
you to fuck off.

>^^.although they're never going to convert me either!)
>^^.
>        try investigating and see if you still can make that 
>    statement! <g>

Look, sport:  If I take a large number of hours to study your
religion, then haven't I fulfilled the purpose of the Proselytutes
about which I am complaining?

Here's an exercise for you: Find *any* archaeological corroboration
of the claim that the lost tribes of Israel ever traveled to America.
A carbon-dated Aramaic or Hebrew script, discovered by non-mormons
on either the north or south American continents would do.

For extra credit, construct a reasonable rationalization of the
LDS church's practice of racial segration from it's inception until
the 1960's.  The quakers were right in the forefront of the abolition
movement.  Where the hell were your people?

>        what would you do if you found yourself "volunteering" to 
>    accept the LDS faith?

Well, since the only way I would ever join the LDS would be under
the influence of heavy sedation or psychedelics, If I were to join
the LDS church, the Scientologists, the Moonies, or any similar
orgainzation, my friends have standing instructions to get me to
a rehab clinic.

For that matter, what would you do, if you found that your capacity
for rational cognition overwhelmed your fervent will to believe
and obey?  Would your family ostracize you?

The intolerance that your church displayed by banning all
extracirricular activities in Salt Lake City's high schools, just
so that you could continue to promote the hatred of homosexuals,
is particularly disturbing to me.  Hitler started with the gays.

>        accepting the call to be the Bishop is an enormous responsi-
>    bility, sometimes without much encouragement in some wards
>    where there are spiritual or family problems above the norm. We
>    are not perfect.

No one's asking you to be perfect, just to quit the proselytizing.
It's really patronizing, it displays contempt for the rest of
humanity, and as I've said to other mormon cult victims, it's the
only thing that prompts me to discuss your cult with any person
like yourself, who is firmly set in its delusional mindset.

And, for the safety of the pig-ignorant little hormone-soaked
adolescents that you send forth on the missions:  Give these kids
some basic sex education, will you?  How many of them come back to
Utah with AIDS, because you sent them out with no more advice than
"take a cold shower?"

What's really sad is the way that every cult member tries to convince
himself that *his* franchise has more to offer than Lifespring,
EST, or the newspaper horoscopes.  There may be a greater purpose
to human existence, but you don't know what it is, and neither does
anyone else.

-jcr